More R1b-FGC5939 speculation

[BuckeyeMike]

The aptly named R1b-FGC5939 Uí Briúin Maicne Eócháda Tírmchárnai continues to be very elusive, possibly due to weaker clans grafting of their genealogies onto stronger family lines and forming alliances. One such incident seems to occur with Mael Ruanaid Mor (@973AD) inserting himself into the Ui Conchobair line as Tadg in Tuir’s (956AD) son. There is an obvious deviation in the DNA proving Mael Ruanaid cannot be his son based upon the confirmation of the O’Conor Don line to BY18115 Concobair (?) under Y166841 Uí Briúin Aí. Maelruanaidh is said to “have made a deal where, in return for abandoning any claim to the provincial kingship, he would be given Moylurg. His dynasty were known as the Clan Mulrooney, and later still took the surname of MacDermot.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A1el ... r_mac_Tadg

Among the common surnames under FGC5939 are several McDermott men. Fortunately, we have a fairly reliable genealogy for the McDermott clan from Kings of Magh Luirg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Magh_Luirg), Bart Jaski’s charts #60-66, as well as information from the Mc Dermott family. These genealogies begin with:
Mael Ruanaid Mor (Ui Maelruinaidh)→ Muirchertach → Tadg → Mael Ruanaid → Tadhg Mor → Dermot mac Tadhg Mor (1159AD) → Conchobar Ua Maol Ruanaidh → Tomaltach Ua Maol Ruanaidh → Cormac

There is also a nearly identical genealogy for another name under FGC5939, McDonough, from the Book of Ballymote and Dr. Jaski:
Dermot mac Tadhg Mor (1159AD) → Conchobar Ua Maol Ruanaidh → Tomaltach Ua Maol Ruanaidh → Donnchaid (Clann Donnchada)

I have added two other names with similar DNA, Rowley and McCormick, to show the final SNP divisions of disparate families. For my (Rowley) line I used Muiredach mac Tomaltach (1208AD) because he and his brothers Cormac and Donnchaid seem to split BY20593

This chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true
uses my heuristic SNP/Date chart (27 y/gen, 54 y/mutation) as simple placeholders for mutations.

Beginning with a surmised date for FGC5939 of 477 (Eochaid Tirmcharna d. 558, age @81), Mael Ruanaid Mor falls @ A6925. Charting down, the last common ancestor for each of the 4 families is Tomaltach na Cairge at BY20593 (highlighted yellow)

I believe this data shows, at the very least, we can surmise A6925 as Ui Maelruinaidh; BY20594 as Mac Diarmata. Again, the placement of SNP mutations are not set in stone but merely an approximation.

The dilemma now is WHO are the descendants Eochaid Tirmcharna’s to Mael Ruanaid Mor. Some FGC5939 families are being given false Uí Maini genealogies. One such genealogy from the Book of Ballymote for Clann Donnchada reaches back to Maine Mor “of Connacht”, who in turn was grafted (as one legend goes) as the third branch of the Connachta in place of the Uí Ailello “...through genealogical sleight of hand” by the Uí Maine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Bri%C3%BAin . Clann Donnchada also resurrects the title “ri Tire nAilella”, likely referring to territory.

The quest now is to attempt to untangle the frustrating grafts of:
Ui Maelruinaidh → Ui Conchobair ?;
Ui Maine → Ui Ailello?;
Ui Maine → Uí Briúin Eócháda Tírmchárnai?;
and my #1 theory … Uí Briúin Eócháda Tírmchárnai, Sil Cellach, Ui Maelruinaidh, Mac Diarmata who lived in Moylurg and Cruffon; Cruffon being supposedly named for Cremthainn Cael, the great-great grandson of Maine Mor; who had a son Aodh (d. 558AD), the contemporary of Aed mac Eochaid Tirmcharna (d. 577AD).

And around and around we go.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true

[BuckeyeMike]

Going back over FGC5939 families, I noticed a Kelly (Ó Cellaig) also under A6925 - Ui Maelruinaidh. Could this be a possible conflation with Cellach mac Ragallach; leading to further speculation for a Sil Cellach clan?

We shall see.

[Webmaster]

Mike,

See the Tuesday, 2022-Mar-08, PM post and the recent posts in the Kennys thread for my speculation as to the origin for R1b-FT396104+ Kelley #FTD-B463665 as an Ó Cináeda SCE. This would certainly fit with the Ó Cináeda being (erroneously) ascribed as a related branch of the Uí Maini Ó Cellaig.

[BuckeyeMike]

David,

Could we have another piece of the “Ui Maine of Connacht” puzzle?
IF:
• Mael Ruanaid Mor is A6925+
-his unknown ‘grandfather’ would be BY20602+.
• Ó Cináeda?/ Kelley/ B463665 and Ó Cellaig/ Kelly/ FTD-114219
-are also BY20602+ with Mael Ruanaid Mor.
• Kelley/Kenney
-surmised “Ui Maine of Connacht”, Cland Flaithemáin

THEN:
• This would solidify the speculation of an “Ui Maine of Connacht” Ó Cináeda[ and Ó Cellaig graft somewhere under all of FGC5939+.

(I use “Ui Maine of Connacht” to help me keep this family separated from the other possible families in the Ui Maine confederation.)
The conflation with Cellach mac Ragallach; leading to an “Ui Maine of Connacht” Sil Cellach clan would also be plausible.

I just had another radical idea. If this said conflation did occur, we could fill in the missing gap between my surmised Colla mac Ferggus Sil Cellach and Mael Ruanaid Mor: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =966237284 (Sheet 11)

I included a running commentary to the right that possibly would explain the grafting of the “Ui Maine of Connacht”.

[Webmaster]

Mike,

As a clarification, there is only ONE genetic Uí Maini of Connacht family, and that is the Ó Cellaig and they are R1b-FGC6545+. These men have clear and strong genealogies back to the Uí Maini of Connacht territory. ALL the other families so far are showing up as branches of the Dál Cuinn, except for the Ó Madudáin, who are showing up elsewhere. There may be some other families that I am not aware of as well, such as the Ó Tressaig (Tracey), who IDK where they are on the Y-Haplotree.

The Uí Briúin Síl Cellaig ARE NOT the Uí Maini of Connacht genetically. Some of them MAY have become part of the Uí Maini of Connacht federation, but they are NOT the genetic Uí Maini of Connacht Ó Cellaig family. This is why I say the one R1b-FT396104+ Kelley #FTD-B463665 is almost certainly an Ó Cináeda SCE, falling where he does among the Ó Cináeda.

I overlooked Kelly #FTD-114219, but falling where he does, he is likely an Ó Fallamain SCE. In both of these cases, these men are genetically Uí Briúin, perhaps Maicne Eócháda Tírmchárnai, whose individual ancestors, for whatever reasons, adopted, IMO, the Ó Cellaig surname from the genetic Uí Maini of Connacht Ó Cellaig family. To be clear, this is an opinion based on the data we have so far; but the common geographical area for R1b-FGC5939 and R1b-FGC6545 makes this reasonable.

[BuckeyeMike]

My apologies for the conflation of the “Ui Maine of Connacht” nomenclature. I have been using the various Ui Maine genealogies Dennis Walsh provides (http://sites.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/uimaine.htm)
Ua Ceallaigh of Úi Maine, Úi Maine of Colla dá Críoch (plus 1 alternate), Úi Maine of Connacht, Úi Maine of Tethba, and 2 for the Úi Maine of Leinster. The 2 Leinster families I immediately eliminated. I understand Tethba to be Ui Neill. This leaves Ua Ceallaigh of Úi Maine, Úi Maine of Colla dá Críoch (plus 1 alternate), Úi Maine of Connacht. The first 2 involve the obviously misplaced Imchadha m Colla Focrith, and even though the latter matches the others, I use “Úi Maine of Connacht” to remind myself they are not Clann Colla while I try to find who adopted the Ui Cellaig surname.
R1b-FT396104+ Kelley #FTD-B463665 and Kelly #FTD-114219 are, without question, Uí Briúin Eócháda Tírmchárnai.
I hope this clears up some confusion.

Since Ó Cináeda?/ Kelley/ B463665 and Ó Cellaig/ Kelly/ FTD-114219
may have split BY20602+ with Mael Ruanaid Mor would something like this be plausible?:
Uí Briúin Eócháda Tírmchárna
• Muinter Cináeda
• Muinter Cellaig
• Muinter Maelruanaid

I still wonder if Cellach mac Ragallach is the progenitor of all 3, Ceallach (874AD), for some reason, grafts into genetic Uí Maini of Connacht Ó Cellaig family...OR did the Ui Maine of Connacht graft themselves into Ui Briuin Sil Cellaig?

TBT10196 - Cellach Sil Cellach
- Forggus
TBT10197 - Colla
- Ceallach
BY20602 - Aedh
- Murchad?
A6925 - Mael Ruanaid Mor

The following dialog is an outline of my speculated timeline which seems to tie the DNA and genealogy.
THIS IS ONLY MY SURMISE!

@ 756AD - Crimthain defeats Ui Maini in Delbnha
@ 796AD - Colla Sil Cellaig escapes from Ui Briuin Seola to Delbhna (Ui Maine of Connacht territory)
@ 860AD - Ceallach mac Finnrachtach; genetically Ui Briuin Sil Cellach; mistakenly placed along Ui Maine genealogy since he is in Ui Maini territory?
@ 960AD - Mael Ruanaid Mor relinquishes his hereditery Connacht kingship (through Colla Sil Cellach, the last Ui Cellaig king) to Ui Conchobair to rule Delbhna (Moylurg). Mael Ruanaid Mor is the 1st King of Moylurg. They become their vassals and are grafted into Ui Conchobair genealogy. This is possibly to form an alliance with the stronger Ui Conchobair family as protection from the “REAL” Ui Maine whom they displaced/assimilated 200 years earlier? The succeding 4 kings of Moylurg are VERY obscure.
M1048.17 - Another “REAL” Ui Maine clan invade Dealbhna Nudat, where the royal chieftains were all slain, namely “...Ua Maelruanaidh (Maelruanaid?), Ua Flannagain, the Cleireach Ua Taidhg, and Mac Buadhachain, royal heir of Dealbhna Nuadhat”. The Ui Maine regain control of Moylurg (Dealbhna Nudat)
@ 1124AD – Dermot mac Tadhg Mor, becomes 7th King of Moylurg, from 1124 to 1159. He was a vassal and kinsman of the Ó Conchubhair, Kings of Connacht.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Diarmada

[Webmaster]

Mike,

No worries; I just wanted to clarify what I mean by the Uí Maini. As we know, it is all a huge genealogical tangle that the data we have so far is beginning to help untangle. But until we get a lot more data from surnames we have not seen as yet, IDK how much we can untangle, in terms of getting correct genealogies in the middle - that is, after ~500 AD to before ~1100 AD. This is the time frame all the confusion seems to have either crept in or been added. So while I don't mind speculating that Eóchád Tírmchárnae is the most likely candidate to be the progenitor of the R1b-FGC5939 clade, I don't think we have enough data yet to untangle the various subclades under R1b-FGC5939 until we get better Y-DNA tests, i.e., telomere-to-telomere gapless Y chromosome test results, AND we get more test results from other key surnames. Time will tell.

[BuckeyeMike]

David,

Absolutely agree, @ 500 AD to @ AD 970AD genealogies seem like someone pulled names out of a hat. I imagine adult beverages would have been involved as well.

Given the exact matching genealogies for DCG surnames under A6925+ (McCormick, McDermott, McDonough) from Maelruanaid Mor to Tomaltach na Cairge, would it be feasible to label the A6925+ subclade as “Ui Maelruanaid” or similar? Whoever comes up in between should just get skipped!

Again, as you know, I am not a patient man and I’m jealous of the Kenny’s and Kelly’s

Besides, I like the name “Maelruanaid”... Micheál Ó Rothláin Ua Maelruanaid. I know that name will sound better after you fix it.

[Webmaster]

Mike,

There are still a couple of surnames under R1b-A6925 that I would like to get more data on before doing any labeling; the O’Toole especially. Given the large cluster of Ó hAllmuráin (O’Halloran) men under R1b-FGC5939, this enumeration from the Muinter Murcháda Tract intrigues me:

O’Halloran is the chief of the twenty-four ballys [townlands] of Clanfergail; and of these are O’Antuile and O’Fergus of Roscam.

And from John O’Donovan's Ordnance Survey Letters Of Galway:

This being established it will be at once seen that the territory of Clann-Feargaile (which included Galway, Clare and Ros-cam), extended eastwards from the River Galway so as to include the parishes of St. Nicholas, Oranmore and that part of the parish of Clare lying south of the river, and also as far as the ford of Athenry. This (tract) will be found exactly to correspond with 24 ballys or ancient Irish townlands of which 30 formed a triocha chéad (or Barony). Some (old men) say that Clann Feargaile - O’Halloran's Country - extended westwards across the river of Galway even as far as the townland of Spiddel‡ (and that the O’Hallorans were till lately the proprietors of Taylor's hill), but this is not likely nor does it agree with (the statement of) Roderic O’Flaherty, who places the parish of Rahun and all west of the river in the territory of Gno-beg, or Gno-mor.

[BuckeyeMike]

David,

Purely for my education on the process of labeling:
1. I do see why the FGC5939 Ó hAllmuráin (Halloran FTD-396025) man needs more testing to establish his position more accurately.
2. The A6925 O’Antuile (O’Toole FTD-366228) man is parallel to BY20816. Was he likely an SCE? What would be the determining criteria to change his clade to the Cland Fergaile Ó hAllmuráin (Halloran) grouping? Some sort of split of A6925 and BY20816 putting the 2 clades ‘nearer’ to each other?
3. Would this same situation apply to the separation of A6925 Mac Cinn Gamna (Cunningham FTD-354856) and parallel FT76257 Mac Cinn Gamna (Cunningham FTD-205735)?
As always, I appreciate your expertise.