The Uí Maini Puzzle

[Webmaster]

FYI, after extensive research:

AT999.7	Maelseachlainn Ó Maelruanaigh, king of Cremthann, was slain by the Uí Ceallaigh, i.e. Cú Caille.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p352
AFM998.8	Maelseachlainn Ua Maelruanaidh, lord of Creamhthainn, was slain by the Ui-Ceallaigh.
CS999.8	Mael Sechnaill ua Mael Ruanaidh, king of Cremthann, was killed by the Uí Cellaigh, i.e. Cú Caille.

are almost certainly referring to the Airgíalla, Síl Daimín, Síl Duib Tíre, Uí Crimthainn and the Bregia Ó Cellaig.

Annette Kehnel's work is very interesting. I have not come across it before, nor many of the annals entries referred to in it.

But let me be clear, Uí Maini === Ó Cellaig by centuries of definition. I assume the title comes from The Book Of Lecan itself - The Tribes And Customs Of Hy-Many, Commonly Called O’Kelly’s Country. But if not, it still shows the inherently assumed association. All the genealogies are arranged around the Ó Cellaig. This is why I say there is only one genetic Uí Maini family, and that is the Ó Cellaig.

In order for the genealogies to correlate to the Y-DNA as much as possible, there is only one reasonable conclusion with the data we have to date, and that is R1b-DF105 are the Connachta. The only way that R1b-A18726 AND R1b-BY35731 can both be Uí Briúin, is that R1b-A18726 are the descendants of Dau Galach and R1b-BY35731 are the descendants of Conall Oirbsen, the only 2 sons of Brión mac Eócháda Muigmedúin that Dr. Bart Jaski, for one, found credible.

That fits hand-in-glove with R1b-ZZ87 being the Uí Néill, and R1b-FGC23742 and R1b-BY35727 being the descendants of Fiachróe Foltsnáthach's 2 sons, Feradach Daithe and Amalgaid, respectively. Again, we don't have all the mutations discovered yet, and we are seeing that many of the smaller direct subclades of R1b-DF105 are being brought under the umbrellas of the larger direct subclades. For example, R1b-A10642 and R1b-FT17642 were just moved to under the R1b-ZZ87 Uí Néill umbrella clade.

So as you said, by the principle of Occam's Razor, R1b-DF105 are the Connachta. It fits too well to be anything else. Then R1b-A18726 must be the descendants of Dau Galach for the reasons given above. Then R1b-A259 are clearly the descendants of Eógan Sríab, who is only ascribed one son; which leaves all the other direct subclades of R1b-A18726 being the descendants of Ernán, Eógan Sríab's brother, who is ascribed at least 3 sons. Therefore, the R1b-BY198 men are Uí Briúin.

The R1b-BY198 clade did not occur until after Brión mac Eócháda Muigmedúin, who was not born until a few generations after the fictional Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine AND the fictional Eóchád Doimlén son of Cairbre Lifechair. Plus, the "Uí Maini" families are appearing in several different Dál Cuinn clades, as noted in previous posts. If they were all in R1b-BY198, then it might be something to consider; but they are not. So we are back to an "Uí Maini" confederation, NOT a dynastic group; which breaks all the Uí Maini genealogies. Yes, this does give rise to the question as to who were the Uí Maini in the early annals entries before the rise of the Ó Cellaig; and for that I have no answer as yet.

I intensely dislike having to diverge from the genealogies and annals, but there is clearly a significant tangle in them based on the Y-DNA results. The Uí Briúin Aí genealogy is obviously wrong, based on the Y-DNA. The Cland Maíl Rúanada genealogy linking them to the Uí Briúin Aí is obviously wrong, based on the Y-DNA; but they ARE appearing as descendants of Fergus, which does fit their early genealogy. And so it is crystal clear that R1b-FGC5939 are NOT the Uí Briúin Aí. There were obviously later political affiliations, but not a direct genetic connection after the split under R1b-A259.

So yes, the southeastern portion of Co. Galway has major genealogical issues. I am attempting to reinterpret the records only where necessary to fit the Y-DNA. The Uí Maini, unfortunately, are one of the worst of these tangles.

[Muireagain]

But let me be clear, Cenel Eoghain === Ó Neill by centuries of definition. This argument, by it very nature, is an Appeal to Tradition and hence a fallacy. And just as the Cenel Eoghain (R1b-S588)=== Ó Neill (R1b-SDF27) relationship has proven false, if also seems the Uí Maini === Ó Cellaig relationship is just as false.

Tradition says the O'Melaghlin/MacLoughlin ==== Southern Ui Neill. Well I sharp-eyed historians found the point were their pedigree has been grafted onto the accepted Ui Southern Neill line. There is too much politics associated with bloodlines (i.e., Ireland was a patrilineal society) to believe in tradition.



Additionally Eoin MacNeill writes in "Early Irish Population-Groups: Their Nomenclature, Classification, and Chronology":
"[62] In Dál Cuinn, the starting-point of all the septs is Cairbre Lifechar. From Fiachu Sraiftine son of Cairbre descend the Ui Néill and the Connacht septs Ui Briúin, Ui Fiachrach, Ui Ailello, and Ui Fergusso. From Eochu Doimlén son of Cairbre descend the Airgialla and Ui Maine.
[63] In the genealogies, Niall, Brian (Brión), Fiachra, Ailill, and Fergus are sons of Eochu Mugmedoin. Their period is the close of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth. Lóiguire son of Niall was king of Ireland at St. Patrick's coming in 432, and died in 462 (AU). Eogan son of Niall died in 465 (AU), Conall Cremthainne son of Niall in 480. Nathi son of Fiachra succeeded Niall and preceded Lóiguire as king of Ireland.
[64] The uncertainty of the genealogical tradition at this period is exemplified by the following counterstatements (Lecan 454):—
“Sunt qui dicunt Fiachrach [read Fiachra] Brian Maine tri meic Domnaill meic Fiachrach Sraiftini. Sunt qui dicunt tri meic Fhiachrach Fhir Da Giall meic Cairpri Lifeochair .i. na tri Cholla .i. Cotta Uas ⁊ Colla Mend ⁊ Colla da Crich a n-anmand.”

[Webmaster]

Without more data, it is a difficult situation. But your comparison is not apt. In the case of the Cenél nEógain, it is ONE traditional branch that is R1b-DF27+, the Ó Néill Rúad and their dependent sept, the Clandeboye O’Neill. The other families are falling under R1b-S588 in the main. In the case of the Uí Maini, there is only one traditional family in R1b-FGC6540 and all the other families are being found in diverse R1b-DF105 subclades. This completely discredits the Uí Maini genealogies and leaves the Ó Cellaig/O’Kelly as the only readily recognizable Uí Maini family so far.

I cannot speak to the O’Melaghlin because AFAIK we have no samples of them. I am not saying there are no samples, just that I am not aware of any.

I will state that I believe the writings of 6th through 10th century AD Christian clerics, who formed the basis for the later annals we have now, which centuries of intelligent men before me also did, before the likes of 20th century AD historians like Francis John Byrne and his ilk, who were historical revisionists.

Regardless, the early Uí Maini genealogies are complete fiction, as the Y-DNA has proven. So I accept nothing prior to about the 11th century AD. How and why the obviously fictitious early Uí Maini genealogies were written, IDK. As I keep repeating there are egregious discrepancies in the genealogies, but in the main they are consistent with the Y-DNA.

[62] In Dál Cuinn, the starting-point of all the septs is Cairbre Lifechar. From Fiachu Sraiftine son of Cairbre descend the Ui Néill and the Connacht septs Ui Briúin, Ui Fiachrach, Ui Ailello, and Ui Fergusso. From Eochu Doimlén son of Cairbre descend the Airgialla and Ui Maine.

The Y-DNA has proven the part about the Uí Néill and the Connachta septs of the Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachroí, conclusively, IMO. The Uí Ailella and Uí Fergusa just don't have enough documentation to say anything about them. But the Y-DNA has conclusively proven the part about Eóchád Doimlén son of Cairbre Lifechair is utterly wrong. And with the data we have to date, it has also completely discredited Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine.

[63] In the genealogies, Niall, Brian (Brión), Fiachra, Ailill, and Fergus are sons of Eochu Mugmedoin. Their period is the close of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth. Lóiguire son of Niall was king of Ireland at St. Patrick's coming in 432, and died in 462 (AU). Eogan son of Niall died in 465 (AU), Conall Cremthainne son of Niall in 480. Nathi son of Fiachra succeeded Niall and preceded Lóiguire as king of Ireland.

Yes, there are some inconsistencies in the early Uí Néill genealogies after the first generation. I don't think anyone disputes that. But it is a whole different kettle of fish between missing a generation or two and having completely fictitious genealogies for generations, which the Uí Maini obviously have.

[64] The uncertainty of the genealogical tradition at this period is exemplified by the following counterstatements (Lecan 454):—
“Sunt qui dicunt Fiachrach [read Fiachra] Brian Maine tri meic Domnaill meic Fiachrach Sraiftini. Sunt qui dicunt tri meic Fhiachrach Fhir Da Giall meic Cairpri Lifeochair .i. na tri Cholla .i. Cotta Uas ⁊ Colla Mend ⁊ Colla da Crich a n-anmand.”

Sadly, my Latin is basically nonexistent, but that says “Fiachróe, Brión, and Maine are the 3 sons of Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine”. But it is NOT saying that these Fiachróe and Brión are the same as the progenitors of the Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachroí. We see cousins of various degrees sharing the same given names all the time in the genealogies. And we have NO proof as of yet that the line of Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine was anything but fictitious.

Then it says the 3 Collas are the sons of Fiachróe Fir Dá Gaill, son of Cairbre Lifechair, which of course is in complete contradiction to them being the sons of Eóchád Doimlén. And I must confess complete ignorance of Fiachróe Fir Dá Gaill; but since the Y-DNA has proven the Cland Colla CANNOT have anything like either of those 2 fictitious genealogies, this is completely moot.

Without more data, it is useless to argue. But there is absolutely NO Y-DNA evidence that R1b-BY198 are the Uí Maini. It DOES show that some parts of it were members of the Uí Maini federation, but that is all. And there is NO contradictory evidence to say that R1b-BY198 are not descendants of Ernán, and thus Uí Briúin; that is, descendants of Ernán son of Dau Galach son of Brión son of Eóchád Muigmedón son of Muiredach Tírech son of Fiachu Sraibtine son of Cairbre Lifechar son of Cormac Ulfada son of Art Óenfer son of Conn Cétchathach.

[Muireagain]

Several of the Ui Maine pedigrees can be confirmed to a certain degree by the annals per Keheller's "Ui Maine in the Annals and Genealogies to 1225":
(Using the pedigrees from Leabhar Ui Maine)

Clann Cremthaind
Murchatan d.938 FM mac Sochlachain d.912 AU,FM c.867mic Diarmata, mic Fergusa, mic Murchada d.780 AU, mic Duib-da-Thuath, mic Daimine, mic Daimdairi, mic Ailella, mic Coirbine, mic Aeda, mic Crimthaind Chaeil, mic Lugdach, mic Dallain, mic Bresail, mic Maine Moir.

Do Genealach h-Ui Ceallaig and so
Domnall Mor, mac Taidg Thaillten c.1135-45, mic Concobair in Catha d.1135, mic Diarmada, mic Taidhg d.1074, mic Murchaid, mic Concobair d.1030, mic Taidg Catha Briain d.1014, mic Murcaidh d.962 AU,FM, mic Aedha, mic Ceallaig, mic Findachta, mic Ailella d,790 AU,FM, mic Innrechtaig d.755 AU,AT,FM, mic Dluthaig d.743 AT,FM, mic Fhidchellaig d.691, mic Dicholla, mic Eogain Finn, mic Cormaic, mic Cairpri Cruim, mic Fearadaig, mic Lugaid, mic Dallain, mic Bresail, mic Maine Moir.

Genealac h-Ua Cormaic Maenmuigi.
Niall, mac Cearbaill mic Mailcoba, mic Rudgusa d.826, mic Follachtaig d,770, mic Concaissil, mic Fhachtna d.729, mic Lachtnain, mic Fhindtain Uallaig, mic Seith, mic Cormaic, mic Crimthainn, mic Bresail, mic Maine Moir.

The Clann Comain
Conall, mac Cormac d.884, mic Ceithernach d.845, mic Fogartach, mic Fearadhach, mic Eachtghal, mic Sechnasach d.713, mic Congal, son of Eoghan, mic Coman, mic Brenainn Dall d.601, mic Cairpri Fechine, mic Fearadhach, mic Lughaidh, mic Dallan, mic Bresal, mic Maine Mor.

(Fr Walsh in "Connacht in the Book of Rights" writes: "Common tradition made Ui Maine a branch of the Airgillia people which, according to the Book of Rights, held the greater part of the Ulster province. These were, it believed , descended from the Three Collas, sons of Domlen. But an apparently older account derived Ui Maine from Domnall, son of Fiachu Sraptine, brother of Eochu Domlein; see 'Laud Genealogies' [ZCP 8], 292, Rawl B.502, 137b56."
'Laud Genealogies' (11th century) [ZCP 8], 292: "Cond, trí maic laiss .i. Condla Coém, Crinna, Art Óenfer. Óenmac Airt .i. Cormac. Cethri maic Cormaic .i. Carpri, Muredach, Cellach, Dáre. Trí maic Corpri .i. Fiacho Sroptine, Eochaid, Eocho Domlén, a quo Airgialla. Dá mac Fiachach Sroptine .i. Muredach Tírech, Domnall, sen Ó Maine. Óenmac Muredaig Eocho Mugmedón."
Rawl B.502 (12th century), 137b56: "Dá mc Fiachach Sraptine: Muiredach Tírech & Domnall sen Úa Maine."
The 12th century Book of Leinster is also of this opinion: GENELACH .H. MANI.: [gap: name omitted/extent: ? letters] m Aeda m Diarmata m Thaidc m Murchada m Aeda m Cellaig m Fhiannachtai m Ailella m Inrechtaig m Dluthaig m Fhithchellaig m Dicolla m Eogain Fhind m Cormaic m Corpri Chruim m Fheradaig m Lugdach m Dallain m Bresail m Mani m Echach m Domnaill m Fhiachach Sroptine m Carpri Lifechair.
Hence, originally the Ui Maine were not consider to be members of the Airgialla. That is a later creation.
However, when we are talking Briuin, Niall, Fiachrach, Ailell and Maine, we talking prehistory, i.e., a period without historical records. And this I see in the Saints pedigree in the Book of Leinster, were the obvious Ui Maine saints have Maine as the son of Neill. Noticeably, the Ui Maine pedigrees only emanate from Bressal mac Maine. While, the Cenel Maine has no Bressal mac Maine lines, Prof. Bryne may be correct in that the Ui Maine and Cenel Maine are the same family. Specially as he noted, they occupy the same land.)

"But it is NOT saying that these Fiachróe and Brión are the same as the progenitors of the Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachroí. We see cousins of various degrees sharing the same given names all the time in the genealogies. And we have NO proof as of yet that the line of Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine was anything but fictitious."

Clearly Prof. Eoin MacNeill had uncertain "[64] The uncertainty of the genealogical tradition at this period is exemplified by the following counterstatements (Lecan 454):—
“Sunt qui dicunt Fiachrach [read Fiachra] Brian Maine tri meic Domnaill meic Fiachrach Sraiftini. Sunt qui dicunt tri meic Fhiachrach Fhir Da Giall meic Cairpri Lifeochair .i. na tri Cholla .i. Cotta Uas ⁊ Colla Mend ⁊ Colla da Crich a n-anmand.”

Francis John Bryne writes in "Irish Kings and High-Kings": "..., while the decline of the Ui Ailello in the eighth century left the way open for the powerful Ui Maine, whose large over-kingdom spread over the whole south-east of the province, to be accepted as one of the Three Connachta." So presumably there are text that exist that have Na Teora Connachta as the Ui Maine, Ui Briuin and Ui Fiachrach?

[Webmaster]

Bernard,

Again, until all of the Y sequencing tests are telomere-to-telomere GAPLESS tests so that we can compare the entire Y chromosome and ALL mutations, we are going to have some uncertainty in the basic Y-Haplotree. We are seeing changes to the basic structure of the Y-Haplotree not infrequently now. We need complete and accurate data to really begin tearing into the various branches of the Dál Cuinn.

That said, you are not addressing the fact that with the data we have currently, it is IMPOSSIBLE that ANY extant families descended from Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine. There are no signs of any such descendants. We DO have overwhelming signs of the descendants of Eóchád Muigmedón - and that is the entire R1b-DF105 clade.

I am firmly convinced that these so called "pre-history" arguments are complete nonsense. The early Christian scribes had Ogam records they were working from, in addition to oral histories, and that sadly, these records have not survived. And we know from mentions in the existing records there were vellum works that did not survive either. Too many Church establishments were burned and razed, so who knows how many precious records were lost as a result? Further, as a written history culture, we do not appreciate the discipline and learning of an oral history culture, so we tend to arrogantly wave any such traditions away.

I believe the traditional records completely up until the point the Y-DNA says the traditional records are wrong. And unfortunately there are such divergences, the Uí Maini being one of the most egregious ones. But until overwhelming and irrefutable evidence to the contrary is discovered, the following is my unshakeable conclusion of the Occam's Razor version of the early Dál Cuinn.

Since it is impossible to know what the order of occurrence of mutations in a phylogenetic node was, those mutations are used as place holders. The heuristic of 30 year generations and mutations occurring once every other generation, or every 60 years, works on the O’Conor Don genealogy up through Cathal Crobderg, ~1200 AD. I have not tried to extend it beyond that time frame because it was not needed at the time. It is not perfect and there are deviations, but it is no worse an age estimation than the fundamentally flawed methods used by YFull, etc.; which typically have an 82 years per SNP factor for BigY 700 tests, and 125 years per SNP for BigY 500 tests. They only use SNPs, while I include INDELs, SUBs, etc., so the faster mutation rate is to be expected, above and beyond their fundamentally flawed assumptions.

Mutation Placeholder	Approximated Birth Year	Person	Recorded Death Year
DF104	120 AD	Conn Cétchathach	157 AD
	150 AD	Art Óenfer
DF105	180 AD	Cormac Ulfada
	210 AD	Cairbre Lifechar
DF108	240 AD	Fiachu Sraibtine
	270 AD	Muiredach Tírech
DF109	300 AD	Eóchád Muigmedón	362 AD
	330 AD	Brión	~371 AD
A18726	360 AD and later since he is the youngest son	Dau Galach	~427 AD

This fits the traditional records and it fits the Y-DNA the simplest. So I reiterate, there is absolutely no sign of any descendants of Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine. I do not dispute there was a powerful Uí Maini federation, but I do vehemently dispute there was an Uí Maini dynasty descending from a common male progenitor. There is NO evidence to support any such claim.

Now if you insist the Uí Maini genealogies started with Maine Már, and he was a descendant of Ernán, how come we are not seeing ALL the Uí Maini families under R1b-BY198? Why are the various Uí Maini families's genealogies so wrong? Something happened that we do not understand and it appears certain records were altered to fit a desired storyline, such as the Uí Briúin Aí being descended from Fergus, when in fact the Y-DNA says they could not have. We just need more and complete Y-DNA data and a clearer understanding of the traditional genealogies and annals with regard to the discrepancies.

[Muireagain]

In order for the genealogies to correlate to the Y-DNA as much as possible, there is only one reasonable conclusion with the data we have to date, and that is R1b-DF105 are the Connachta. The only way that R1b-A18726 AND R1b-BY35731 can both be Uí Briúin, is that R1b-A18726 are the descendants of Dau Galach and R1b-BY35731 are the descendants of Conall Oirbsen, the only 2 sons of Brión mac Eócháda Muigmedúin that Dr. Bart Jaski, for one, found credible.

The BY35731+ O'Malley are unlikely to be Ui Briuin, given the issues raised with Conall Oirbsen descendants, as described below. Hence the Ui Briuin are only a subset of A18726.

Fr Walsh's "Connacht in the Book of Rights" notes:
"As the Book of Rights shoes, this people [Umaill] was of subordinate status, and consequently the ruling dynasty was not of the same descent as the Ui Briuin kings of Connacht. But a claim was set up on behalf of the kings of Umall that they were descended from Brion ancestor of Ui Briuin, and consequently that their kingdom should rank as free. AU 787 we have the following: ar nepotum Briuin hUmil apud nepotes Fiachrach Muirsce ubi omnes optimi circa regem. Flathgalum filium Flannabrat ceciderunt. Lecan 178V c 46-48 : Conall Oirisin mac Briain mic Echach Mugmedoin a quo Fir Umaill cona comfhaicsib ; BB 89 b 6 : Conall Oirisin mac. Briain is uadh Fir Umhaill, Conall Oirisin son of Brion, from him are the Men of Umall. But elsewhere Conall Oirisin is ancestor of the Partraige, who were not Gaeidhil at all, as the initial P in their names shows : Partraidi Shlebi .i. o. Cruaich co Loch nOirpsen 7 do cloind Conaill Airisin mic. Briain doib, Partraige Slebe from Cruach to Loch Corrib, and they are descendants of Conall Oirisin son of Brion, Lecan i8iv a 8. The descent of the Men of Umall from the ancestor of Ui Briuin also is a fiction."

From Seanchas: Studies in Early and Medieval Irish Archaeology, History and Literature in Honour of Francis J. Byrne
(Ó Muraíle, Nollaig, “Some early Connacht population-groups”):
"Partraige ... The third group, however – stretching from Cruach ( Croaghpatrick ) to Lough Corrib and therefore covering the whole mountainous expanse of south - west Co. Mayo - is said to be of rather different origin , deriving instead from Conall Airisin son of Brión son of Echu Mugmedóin ; this Conall is also said to have been the ancestor of Fir Umaill , whose ruling family later bore the surname Ó Máille and who are no doubt identical with the Uí Briúin Umaill . 128 This supposed link with the great Uí Briúin dynasty is peremptorily dismissed as ' not authentic ' by Mac Neill , on the grounds that a descendant of Brión's - eight generations removed from him and whose floruit would accordingly have been c.AD 700 – bore the Norse name Ragnall ; 129 Byrne and Ó Corráin are equally sceptical.130 T.F. O'Rahilly131 draws attention to the fact that Roderic O'Flaherty in the late seventeenth century 132 numbers the Partraige among the Damnonii along with the Gamanrad of Irrus, Tuatha Taiden, Clanna Morna, Clanaumoir, Fir Chraibhe ad Gabraige Succa."

Eoin MacNeill's "Early Irish Population-Groups: Their Nomenclature, Classification, and Chronology":
"The Papraige here mentioned and the Partraige are the only known instances of peoples in Ireland whose name has P for initial. Note that the Mugdoirn were of unknown race. The Partraige, too, were regarded as aborigines. “Donab Partrigib annso. Partraige in Locha forsata Mag Thuireadh Cunga ⁊ Partraige Cheara ⁊ Partraige Clainde Fiachrach ⁊ Partraige Sleibhe .i. o Cruaith co Loch nOirbsen ⁊ Partraige Midhe forsambí Oilill ⁊ Meadhbh ⁊ do claind Genainn doib.” H. 3. 17, p. 724. A poem on the same page, already quoted, pretends that they were descended from Art son of Oengus, king of Cashel in the fifth century, but no son of the name is assigned to Oengus in the genealogies. “Partraidi Cera, cid re Cloinn Diallaid (la Claind Fiachrach?), ni dib doib, acht is do Sen-Chondachtaib .i. do Chloind Genainn maic Deala maic Loith. Partraidi in Locha, ait ita Mag Tuiread ⁊ Cunga, do Cloind Sreing maic Sengaind doib. Partraidi Shlebi .i. o Cruaich co Loch nOirpsen, ⁊ do Cloind Conaill Airisin maic Briain doib. Genelach Partraidi annso. Radnall m. Aeda m. Mail Ruanada m. Conaill m. Echach m. Diarmada in Lacha m. Domnaill na Tri Tuath .i. na tri Partraidi m. Setna otait Hi Setna .i. taisich Partraidi m. Conaill Oirisin m. Briain m. Echach Muidmedeoin.” Lecan 458 a. This genealogy is not authentic. Brian (Brion), being a brother of Niall Noigiallach, must have lived about A.D. 400. Ragnall would accordingly have lived about A.D. 700; but since he bore a name adopted from the Norse, this date is out of the question. Accordingly it is natural to find that the Ui Briuin genealogies, though they mention Conall Oirisen, do not give the pedigree quoted above and do not include the Partraige or their chiefs among the Ui Briuin."

[Webmaster]

I obviously completely disagree that “the BY35731+ O’Malley are unlikely to be Ui Briuin, given the issues raised with Conall Oirbsen descendants”. Those quotes you are citing are people's analytical OPINIONS, delivered well after the fact, not hard facts from contemporaneous sources. I give them the same credence as the following statement from Hubert Thomas Knox in his 1908 AD work, The History Of The County Of Mayo To The Close Of The Sixteenth Century, p. 21:

The alleged descents of Hy Briuin of Brefne and Conmaicne from Brian Orbsen [sic] and from Conmaicne of Dunmore must be regarded as fictitious.

which we know from the Y-DNA is utterly wrong regarding the Uí Briúin Bréifne. The parallel branches of R1b-ZZ87 (Uí Néill), R1b-A18726 (Uí Briúin), R1b-BY35731 (Uí Briúin), R1b-FGC23742 (Uí Fiachroí), and R1b-BY35727 (Uí Fiachroí) clearly support the traditional genealogy of at least 3 of the sons of Eóchád Muigmedón. To reiterate, Ailill and Fergus just don't have enough documentation to say anything one way or the other; other than to leave possible origins for the smaller unidentified direct subclades of R1b-DF105, which may yet be subsumed into the larger subclades with the discovery of unifying mutations.

All that aside, I have said all I can on the matter until we get more data. The important thing is arriving at the truth, and since the traditional genealogies and annals have been accepted as the truth for centuries by very intelligent men, and are the ONLY records we have, I see absolutely no need to deviate from them UNTIL the Y-DNA dictates otherwise; which in the case of the Uí Maini it does.

[Webmaster]

If "Uí Maini" was a territorial name, then WHO were the original Uí Maini inhabitants? That is, who gave their name to the territory originally?

Uí Maini as a people and a territory were recorded in St. Patrick's time frame, ~450 AD, in the Tripartite Life Of St. Patrick as:

Patrick went thereafter into Tír Cairedo, and founded at Ard Licce a church, namely, Sendomnach; and he left therein Deacon Coemán. And Patrick built(?) Ard Senlis, where he placed holy Lallócc, and he obtained a place in Mag Nento. And they went with bishop Cethech to his country. Of the race of Ailill was Cethech's mother. Of the Cenél Sái of Cianacht from Domnach Sairigi at Dom-liacc Cianáin was his father. And this was the custom of bishop Cethech: in Domnach Sái [which was situate in paterno solo.] he used to celebrate the Great Easter, and in Áth-dá-Laracc in Cenannus [in materno solo situm] he used to celebrate the Little Easter with Comgilla, for the community of Cethech say that Comgilla was rnonkess to Cethech.

Then Patrick went into the territory of Húi-Maine, and left there an archdeacon of his household, to wit, Deacon Just, and founded Fidarta. And Patrick left his book of ritual and baptism with him, and baptized Húi-Maine. And in his old age Deacon Just baptized Ciaran son of the wright out of that book of Patrick,—(‘in his old age’) because he was a hundred and forty when he baptized Ciaran, as the most skilful say.

Patrick's Franks, moreover, went from him, namely fifteen brothers and one sister, namely, Bernicius, Hibernicius and Hernicus, etc., and the sister Nitria. And many places were bestowed upon them. One of these was Imgae Baislicce between Húi-Mane and Mag Ái. The likeness of the place Patrick indicated to them with his finger from Cell Garad [Colgan's text seems to have differed here: uui ex his [scil. fratribus] assignauit Ecclesiam de Imga Bais-lece . . . aliis ex ordine digito demonstrando, designauit sua loca], for they had come to Patrick that he might make choice for them of the places which they found.

This authority, as well as others, says, "Cell Garad (Tirechán’s Uaran Garad), Co. Roscommon (see Hogan 1910, 194)", which is preserved as Oran:

ORAN, a parish, in the half-barony of BALLYMOE, county of ROSCOMMON, and province of CONNAUGHT, 5 ¼ miles (N. W.) from Roscommon, on the road to Castlerea, and on the river Suck; containing 1560 inhabitants. This place was anciently called Huaran-Hichlaback, and is of great antiquity. St. Patrick is said to have founded a church here, of which St. Cethecus was bishop; this prelate was interred here. The old cemetery, adjacent to the high road, is still a favourite place of burial, and the reputation of its sanctity attracts many pilgrims.

And the analysis by the Rev. Dr. John Healy:

V.—PATRICK AMONGST THE CIARRAIGE OF MAGH AI

Patrick next went from Cruachan into the place which the Tripartite calls Tir Cairedo, and Tirechan Magh Cairetha; but it is evidently the same name. It is about eight miles west of Cruachan, and lay around the modern town of Castlerea. In this plain Patrick founded a church near the place called Ard-lice, and he left therein Deacon Coeman. From him the church came to be called Kilkeevan; and the parish naturally took its title from the church. The old church was little more than a mile from Castlerea, to the west, and its ruins, or rather its site, in the old churchyard may still be seen, near the mansion of O’Conor Don, at Clonalis. Of Deacon Coeman himself, we know nothing else; but the epithet would seem to imply that he had been a deacon in the religious family of Patrick, and he is described as a youth dear to God and to Patrick. The name is Irish, and it may be that he was in some way connected with the district. The modern parish of Castlerea is, properly speaking, the parish of Kilkeevan, and, as such, is set down in all the parochial registers of the diocese of Elphin, of which it forms the most westerly district. It was also called Sen-domnach, being the oldest church of the place; but that name has disappeared from the memory of the people.

From Kilkeevan Patrick turned his steps northward, and came to Ard Senlis—the Height of the old Fort—and there he built a church, wherein he placed the holy virgin Lallocc; and near it he obtained another church site in Magh Nento. It would appear that Lallocc had her convent and oratory at some distance from the church of Magh Nento. The place is now known as Fairy Mount, a conspicuous hill about five miles north of Castlerea. Magh Nento was the surrounding plain.

Now, Patrick had in his company at Fairymount the holy Bishop Cethech, whom he first met, so far as we can judge, at Duleek, in Meath. Finding him a worthy youth, he had him trained, and then consecrated him a bishop. But though the mother of Cethech was of the Cenel Sai of Domnach Sairigi, near Duleek, his father was of the race of Ailell; so now when he found himself near his father’s people he, together with Lallocc, and the priest of Magh Nento, if not with Patrick also, resolved to pay a visit to his father’s people. But what came of it is uncertain, for it is not there but at Oran, as we shall presently see, he founded his church; and Oran certainly was not in Tirerrill. It is distinctly brought out, however, that Bishop Cethech used to visit his mother’s friends in Meath; ‘and it was his custom to celebrate the Great Easter at Domnach Sairigi, near Duleek, but the Little Easter he used to celebrate at Kells (Cennannus) with St. Comgilla,’ because, as his monks used to say, it was he that had given the veil to that holy maiden, and so he retained, at least by courtesy, the right to visit her convent. The whole story is mentioned incidentally, and, perhaps, out of place; nor indeed is it likely that St. Patrick went further northward on this occasion.

But it is stated expressly that he went a little to the south into Hy Maine. The northern boundary of this territory may be taken roughly as extending at that time from Ballymoe on the Suck to Lanesborough on the Shannon, so that when Patrick came into the barony of Ballymoe he was in the Hy Maine territory. There he founded a church about three miles west of Roscommon town at a place called Fidarta, or as it is now called, Fuerty, on the left bank of the Suck, although the parish includes both banks of the river at this place. Therein he left an archdeacon, or rather a chief deacon, of his household, namely, Deacon Just or Justus, whom, of course, he ordained as priest. To him also he gave ‘his own book of ordinal and of baptism,’ that is his missal and ritual, and Justus baptised the Hy Maine, and amongst them, we may add, was the celebrated St. Ciarain, the founder of Clonmacnoise. But this was long after, in his old age, as the Tripartite expressly states. It was about the year A.D. 512 when, according to the Tripartite, Justus was 140 years old, ‘as the best authorities say.’ But the numerals in these cases given in the manuscripts are always uncertain. The ruins of an ancient church still remain at Fuerty; but it certainly was not a building of the time of St. Patrick.

In the parish of Athleague, south of Fuerty, there is a stone called Gloonpatrick (Glun-Phadruig), so called because ‘it bears the mark of Patrick’s knee, which he left there when praying.’ It shows that Patrick must have gone further south into Hy Many, either on this occasion or more likely later on when he was returning from the West to Tara, and went through Magh Finn on his way to Athlone.

A couple of things to note is that there are 2 Fairymounts in Co. Roscommon, one ~5 miles north of Castlerea as stated above, and another a few miles northeast of Roscommon Town. The first one would appear to be the correct one for Ard Senlis.

Secondly, the scribe for the Tripartite Life Of St. Patrick apparently conflated Áth do Laaraic near Boyle, Co. Roscommon with Áth-dá-Laracc in Cenannus, that is Kells [https://www.academia.edu/es/1499801/Vik ... _Waterford]. The Rev. Dr. Healy also followed this error. Bishop Céthech's mother was clearly identified as being Uí Ailella. Further, St. Patrick met Bishop Maine of the Uí Ailella soon after his crossing into Connacht at Drumsna (Snám dá Én) and had a lot of interaction with the Uí Ailella in this eastern part of Co. Roscommon, especially his nemeses, the Sons of Ercc near Boyle, whom Bishop Maine calls his brethren. All of this suggests that the original territory of the Uí Ailella was NOT the Barony of Tirerrill, Co. Sligo, or not just that, but rather was or included parts of eastern Co. Roscommon.



That is a nice arc on the western side of Crúachan (Tulsk) that these places make. Also, it is interesting to speculate if Carrownageeloge Townland, just northeast of Oran Townland, might be the renamed Imgae Baislicce. Taking Carrownageeloge as carrow+na+gee+loge = cethramthu+inda+gae+locán = portion of land of the spear monastery, and Imgae Baislicce as im+gae baislec = the spear church, it kind of fits the description in Tripartite Life Of St. Patrick. It is certainly better than Rev. Dr. Healy's identification with Baslick Townland which is northeast of Castlerea and definitely north of Tulsk. This makes it difficult for Baslick Townland to be between Húi-Mane and Mag Ái, where Húi-Mane is identified with Fidarta/Fuerty Townland.

Then based on the early places associated with the Uí Maini AND the Uí Ailella, could the original Uí Maini territory been that of the Uí Ailella; and could the change of name been influenced by Bishop Maine of the Uí Ailella, an important clerical figure in the region? Could Uí Maini be an anachronism for Uí Ailella in the above quoted sections? This is pure speculation, but with the decimation of the Uí Ailella by the Uí Briúin ~792 AD, and almost no records of the Uí Ailella surviving, it is curious how so many Uí Briúin descendants became known as "Uí Maini". Admittedly, Fidarta is at the southern end of this area, but it is still interesting.

But if Húi-Mane has nothing to do with Bishop Maine, then once again, who is the tribal namesake? It's all very frustrating still.

[tamcevoy]

Similar to what Mike is saying in other topics, perhaps in this situation we have a genealogy of campfire stories for record keeping? Just a quick look through Donovan's Hy-Many and I don't see any mention of connection to Teffia (except a Kelly being killed there), but there is a MacAodhagain family at 2 locations in Larkin's Surnames. It seems like there is an obvious connection between Teffia and the surnames under BY198-
a)MacAodhagain -a Clan Coscrach historian sept of Uí Maine originally seated at Duniry and at Lissyegan, Ahascragh and Kylegan, Leitrim, Galway; Brehon of Clanricarde and Connacht;
b)MacAodhagain -a Calraighe sept at Calry in Teffia, Westmeath.

And then we have 4 different Maine genealogies as well as the associated SNPs so far;
1.O Kelly genealogy has Máine Mór SNP FGC6545
2. "Úa Maine" descended from Conn of the Hundred Battles, a quo Uí Maine, m Echdach m. Domnaill m. Fiachach Sraiptine m. Carpri Lifechair. SNPs A1206 FGC5939
3. Another separate Uí Maine genealogy from Óengus Dub, grandson of Cathaír Mór, of the Ua Failge sept of Leighin (leinster). SNP BY198 (or more?)
**This would kind of explain the numerous Dunn surnames under BY198? Ó Doinn -an Uí Riagan sept of the Ui Failghe;
4.and another as Maine, son of Niall of the Nine Hostages, a quo Ui Maine Fir Thethba. SNP BY198?

[Webmaster]

Mike Rowley brought up an interesting point in an email that I was not aware of and is quite intriguing.

While Queen Medb was centuries before our Ailill mac Eochaid Muigmedon; this has intrigued me for some time:

It was to that Ailill (mac Máta) that Medb bore the Maines, and Maine was not their first name but thus: Feidlimid, i.e. Maine Aithreamail, and Cairpri, Maine Maithreamail, and Eochaid, Maine Andoe, and Fergus, Maine Tai, and Ceat, Maine (M)or(g)or, and Sin, Maine Milscothach, and .Daire, Maine Mo-epert.
Medb's Men, or, The Battle of the Boyne, Book of Lecan, 351b-353a.
https://web.archive.org/web/20131226101 ... boyne.html

Since she ruled around Rath Cruachan, @6 miles from Elphin; enjoyed the occasional dip in Lough Ree @15 miles away; and "got around" in that area; is it possible that ALL that territory became known as Ui Maine because of her sons. I doubt if any were the progenitor of a dynasty, but 7 Maine boys running around could definitely exert some influence lasting hundreds of years even if they were only legendary.

To which I would like to add that Queen Medb has been associated with the Doon Of Drumsna for centuries; so while this is a little north of the Uí Maini territory whose northern boundary was implied as around Fidarta/Fuerty Parish in The Tripartite Life Of Saint Patrick, it is not that much farther north, and as Mike said, it would have been easy for any of 7 Maine sons to have migrated that small distance south.