Bloodline Or Cland, Does It Matter?

[Mark Monroe]

Chris, I found you referenced in this article. For me, it showed up out of nowhere and you may be aware of it already. The work you do is being noticed!

https://scotaminsider.com/2022/06/the-f ... h-ancestry

[Webmaster]

Way to go, Chris!

Good find, Mark!

It is sad but true that when some people learn the truth of their ancestry is not what they thought, they just shut down and completely forget about genealogy. One of my "distant cousins" did that when they learned they were Irish, not Scottish. They were big into the Grandfather Mountain Highland Games activities and the discovery they were Irish soured it all for them. No matter how many times I tried to explain that being Dál Cuinn had FAR more prestige than any Scottish Cland descent, indeed some of the largest Scottish Clands like the Mac Domnaills forged a Dál Cuinn heritage, my cousin didn't want to hear it.

My approach has always been "I may be descended from cattle thieves, but I want to know WHICH cattle thieves"; bearing in mind I grew up in a place where the only thing lower than a cattle rustler was a horse thief. Imagine my amusement when I learned my ancestors came from Connacht, part of one of the best known early cattle thefts in Gaelic history - The Cattle Raid of Cooley. Were the Dál Cuinn involved? Most likely not. But were they involved with other cattle raids? You betcha!

[ChrisMcLain132906]

Wow, I hadn't come across that, thanks Mark! I think we on the Clan MacLean group's page were discussing why all these cadet branches/houses etc that have living members with titles and extensive paper genealogies haven't done any sort of DNA testing. I said "I bet I know why!" David, that is wild how someone could just become uninterested due to some realizations contrary to what they believe. I have cousins in Cookstown in Co. Tyrone that I got in touch with years ago, and when I forward them new info, they just tell me "well my grandfather said we came from Mull". I think a lot of folks want to hang that crest on their wall or wear a tartan at the highland games and dont really want to accept that the bulk of gaelic people were landless tenant-farmers and were looked at by landowning clan kindreds as "churls and husbandmen ignorant of their own grandfather's name" (the actual words of Connalagh Mageoghegan who translated the Annals of Westmeath in the 1640s). This probably is in the realm of fairly-accurate, which would explain why so many names in the Elizabethan Fiants seem to be patronymic-constructions rather than surnames. A captain on my job that I work with now and then says "Everyone wants to be a chief, nobody wants to be an Indian" hahaha

[Mark Monroe]

Chris, you had me on the floor laughing with your comment because it is so true! Even within Clan Munro I am treated by the bloodline Munros as "churls and husbandmen ignorant of their own grandfather's name"! At their FTDNA Clan Munro Project, the chief DNA expert only recommends not spending any more money than one or two SNP's because they will be able to tell right away if you are bloodline or not. I have to remind everyone there that bloodline or not we are all part of the clan and terminal SNP testing is extremely important to the non-bloodline members. The bloodline clan members really don't like to acknowledge those of us that are mutts!

[Webmaster]

Mark,

What haplogroup are the "bloodline chiefs"? If they are not R1b-DF104+, then THEY are the mutts and you, at least, are of the preeminent lineage, being Dál Cuinn; who as I said, back in the pre-Norman days of Gaelic suzerainty EVERYONE wanted to be a descendant of.

[Mark Monroe]

David,

Bloodline Foulis Munro is I-P37 and for generations thought the Munro name was derived from "Man from Roe" which is the Roe River in Ireland. However, DNA indicates they came from west of Cork in SW Ireland. It's funny that they tout Marilyn Monroe whose grandfather is R-M269. Here is an article describing it but it does not state that Marilyn is not bloodline. As you know, I-P37 is no where close to me or Marilyn. Chris is spot on with the comments quoted in the article! Even Clan Munro like to tout the non-bloodline notorieties and President Monroe who is bloodline purely out of fame. If you are bloodline with President Monroe or Marilyn Monroe with a proven family tree here in the States, they will bend over backwards to help. Everyone else are churls and husbandmen ignorant of their own grandfather's name!

[Webmaster]

Mark,

That is interesting. I just looked at the Y-Haplotree, and I-L460 is the parent clade for I-P214 and I-P37. I-P214 is the parent clade of I-M223 and I-S2525. There has been a lot of research to determine if I-M223 are the Picts of Scotland and possibly the Cruthin of Ireland. I-P37 is an early split before I-M223, but they are both a far cry from R1b-M269.

[zackdaugherty]

Chris, I found you referenced in this article. For me, it showed up out of nowhere and you may be aware of it already. The work you do is being noticed!

https://scotaminsider.com/2022/06/the-f ... h-ancestry

Nice article and well put in its quote of Chris.

Awhile back I did some theory crafting with some simple math in a blog on the probability of a Doherty Surname/DNA switch in a line where the purported surname arose for O'Dochartaigh. At the time I worked it up we based the earliest date on some age estimates of Y-SNP Group R-BY471. FTDNA now dates it around 1000 CE; however, if the old Irish genealogies on the line are to be believed the first Dochartach lived in the late 8th century and his grandson, the first O'Dochartaigh would have been around 800-900 CE. Regardless this probability is dealing with a Single SDS event where honestly we are likely to have several. I still try to emphasize to Doherty members that are not of this genetic line to not let themselves get down or to not consider themselves a Doherty.

[Mark Monroe]

Zack,

Regarding "I still try to emphasize to Doherty members that are not of this genetic line to not let themselves get down or to not consider themselves a Doherty," you are a good leader to have within the O'Dochartaigh research projects. Members need to be educated and understand references to snap shots in time and not get hung up and discouraged with modern agendas and biases.

Within the Clan Munro Chief's immediate family at Foulis Castle located in Ross-shire, Scotland, they don't look down on us that are not bloodline and appear gracious and appreciative to have us. While staying at the castle six years ago, the clan chief's late mother brought me up to speed with the history of the clan and forewarned me of what to expect. She is the one that got me started with researching with genetic genealogy . She, like you, Chris, and David understand the clan hierarchy and are respectful. Unfortunately, there are those within the same projects that are less respectful and can be rather snobbish. Within personal families, members can become very agitated when the truth is presented to them. In my case there are those that are hung up on being related to President Monroe as they were told while growing up. When I try to educated them on the clan structure and that we are not bloodline related but clan related, they want nothing to do with it and distrust the DNA testing convincing themselves there was a mistake in the lab.

Great blog post by the way! Do you mind if I reference it from time to time as the need arises?

[Mark Monroe]

Chris, sorry to have moved off your topic. I never thought this would have grown into this interesting discussion.

David, is there away you can move this discussion to it's own topic thread?