A223 & A823 Question

[Fred Claussen]

Hi Everyone:

I am new to this group and manage two BigY 700 kits at FTDNA for my Dodson cousins (YFull kit nos. YF67466 and YF67467) both of which are under A223 --> A823. The terminal branch is FT123392 at FTDNA and
R-A11697 at YFull. My now-deceased mum was a Dodson by birth which is why I am managing these two kits trying to establish where my Dodsons originated in the British Isles.

I just noticed in one of the Admin posts dated 1 October or 2 October that A223 was referred to as: "...the R1b-A223 Uí Néill mystery clade..."

I am very interested in any details behind the "mystery clade" term as applied to this branch.

Also, any thoughts on this forum re the origins of A223/A823 would be helpful. In looking up/down the YTree at YFull close neighbors sure seem to be dominated by Ireland/Northern Ireland. Of course, the vast majority of these are "self reported" and very likely only refer to quite recent times.

Any new information about A223 or A823 would be very much appreciated!

Fred Claussen

[Webmaster]

Fred,

Firstly, welcome to the DCG Forum!

Secondly, I hope you don't mind but your question was moved to the Uí Néill Noígíallaig subforum, since that is the best place for it.

The R1b-A223 clade is called an Uí Néill mystery clade because while its place under R1b-ZZ87 clearly makes it a branch of the Uí Néill, no particular known Uí Néill families are showing up under it. And yes, many of the families falling under R1b-A223 have a "Scottish" heritage; but from the Irish records, the Irish had settlements in Alba (Scotland) maybe as early as 350 AD, and definitely by 500 AD with the establishment of the kingdom of Dál Riata.

The presence of the Irish in Alba is confirmed by the Venerable Bede, writing in the 7th and 8th centuries AD, particularly in connection with the kingdom of Northumbria.

As well as learning the Irish language and being thoroughly Christianised, Oswiu may have fought for his Gaelic hosts, perhaps receiving his arms—a significant event—from a King of Dál Riata, such as Eochaid Buide, son of that Áedán mac Gabráin whom his father had defeated at the Battle of Degsastan. The Irish annals name one Oisiric mac Albruit, rigdomna Saxan—ætheling Osric—among the dead, alongside Connad Cerr, King of Dál Riata, and others of the Cenél nGabráin, at the Battle of Fid Eóin. Whether Oswiu's marriage with the Uí Néill princess Fín of the Cenél nEógain, and the birth of Aldfrith, should be placed in the context of his exile, or took place at a later date is uncertain.

These accounts are questioned, of course, but the Y-DNA is clearly showing that R1b-DF104 almost certainly originated in Ireland among the Dál Cuinn, and there are plenty of accounts that show Irish interaction with Alba from a very early period.

But again, unfortunately, we have not found a record that establishes the progenitor of R1b-A223 and his specific connection with the Uí Néill. Hopefully, eventually something will be found, but for now, it remains as a mystery clade.

[Fred Claussen]

Why is R1b-A223 Uí Néill considered a "mystery clade"?

My two Dodson kits are below A223 which is why I am asking.

Fred Claussen

[Webmaster]

Fred,

There are the known recorded branches or cenéls from the sons of Niall Noígíallach. R1b-S588 gives strong evidence of being the descendants of Niall's son Eógan; R1b-DF85 gives even stronger evidence of being the descendants of Niall's son Conall Gulban; and R1b-ZS8379 is giving reasonably good evidence of being the descendants of Niall's son Fiachu. All these clades, as well as several others, including R1b-A223, are under the R1b-ZZ87 direct subclade of the R1b-DF105.

R1b-A18726 and R1b-BY35731 give almost conclusive evidence of being the Uí Briúin; R1b-FGC23742 is now giving strong evidence of being the Uí Fiachroí; and R1b-BY35727 gives strong evidence of being the Uí Fiachroí, Uí Amalgada. These are also direct subclades of R1b-DF105, so they are parallel to the R1b-ZZ87 subclade, which means they had different progenitors.

Based on the traditional genealogy of the 4 sons of Eóchád Muigmedón, Brión, Fiachróe Foltsnáthach, and Ailill, the 3 full brothers whose mother was Mongfind, and Niall Noígíallach, the paternal half brother whose mother was Cairenn, then the Y-DNA indicates that all 4 brothers must have been part of the R1b-DF105 clade. But since the identifiable descendants of Brión and Fiachróe Foltsnáthach are NOT part of the R1b-ZZ87 subclade, then logic dictates that R1b-ZZ87 must be the descendants of Niall Noígíallach alone.

We have not identified all the direct subclades of R1b-ZZ87 because we just don't have enough data yet to do so. R1b-A223 falls in this category. We need to identify which son or grandson of Niall Noígíallach was the progenitor of R1b-A223, but to-date we have not been able to do. It is possible we may never be able to do so because there IS no record.

We have the same issue with the other direct subclades of R1b-DF105. There are more than enough recorded sons from Brión, Fiachróe Foltsnáthach, and Ailill to account for all these unidentified subclades, but we just don't have enough data in these subclades to make a reasonably certain identification. There is also the possibility that there were cousin lines under R1b-DF105, not just the sons of Eóchád Muigmedón. But again we just do not have enough data/surnames to correlate the Y-DNA with the genealogies for many of the direct subclades with small sample sizes under them.

The evidence is exceedingly strong that R1b-A233 is a branch of the Uí Néill, but we just have not been able to identify which branch yet, so it remains a "mystery". I hope this answers your question satisfactorily. You may also find Alan Milliken's excellent Regarde Bien website to be of interest.

[Fred Claussen]

Hello Dal Cuinn MB and Admins:

Thanks you very much for your thoughtful replies and the details you provided. I have been away from this group for the lat 4 -5 weeks so am just seeing your replies now very much appreciating the time and thought that went into them.

I will continue to review this message string hoping that eventually the ZZ87 clade can be tied into one of the traditional genealogies without a bunch of hand waving or shoe-horning. I am very much interested in fact-based research with little or no "hope" mixed in. This is why FGS testing is so valuable...

In the meantime I am considering funding BigY 700 for one more Dodson cousin who descends from a
Dodson ancestor who is one generation "back" from the two kits that have already been tested. Possibly can find the funds in Santa's sleigh!

Thanks again for your help!

Fred Claussen

Saratoga, California
USA

[Fred Claussen]

BTW: I forgot to mention my thanks for the reference to Alan Milliken's website Regarde Bien. Alex and I have communicated several times over the last several years trying to tie down the location of my Dodsons before just "showing up" in colonial Maryland ~1720. He mentions my Dodson branch as A11695 on his m222-->A223 page: http://regarde-bien.com/scottish-m222.html


He has done some very good and detailed work as evidenced by the depth of his website. Highly recommend for those who have not visited before.

[Webmaster]

Fred,

You are very welcome.

If I may, I urge you to NOT waste your money on a BigY 700 test, which is somewhat obsolete technology now. For close to the same cost, you can do WGS testing which covers the entire Y chromosome, instead of the 1/3 to 1/2 that a BigY 700 test does, as well as all the other chromosomes and MT-DNA.

The two least expensive tests that I am aware of are the YSEQ WGS400 and the Nebula Genomics Deep tests. I have no experience with the Nebula test, but the last information I had, their sequencing was done in China.

YSEQ is based in Berlin and their sequencing is done there. We have done a few WGS400 tests and the results seem to be quite good. YFull is recommended for the analysis of the WGS test results for both companies. We have a DCG on both YFull and YSEQ. And I always recommend getting your test result analyzed by Alex Williamson on The Big Tree, who I think does the best analysis of anyone.

Re R1b-ZZ87 being the Uí Néill clade, I personally have no doubt of that assignment. The evidence is overwhelming to me. Sorting out all the direct subclades of R1b-ZZ87, like R1b-A223, is going to take some time, as I indicated previously. it is a matter of finding records that indicate what the connection is.

For those who point to an apparent "Scottish" origin for some of the R1b-ZZ87 direct subclades, once again, I politely refer them to the well documented Dál Riata kingdom that was colonized from Ireland ~500 AD. And once again, I further point to the records of the Venerable Bede, who wrote in the 700s AD, that not only was there an Irish kingdom in southwest Scotland, but there were possible Uí Néill descendants there too.

And once again, I further direct their attention to St. Colum Cille, of the Uí Néill, Cenél Conaill, and his Irish followers and their establishment of a religious center on the Isle of Iona ~mid 500s AD, and remind them that Irish Christian clerics were not enjoined to celibacy and non-marriage at this time. This center did a lot of missionary work throughout Scotland very early on. If I recall correctly, the Robertsons claim descent from one of the later abbots of Iona, and they are indeed R1b-ZZ87+.

So there is ample historical evidence that it is VERY possible that R1b-ZZ87 was brought to Scotland from Ireland as early as 500 AD or so by one or more Uí Néill scions.

Finally, something that is somewhat buried in Y-DNA testing, even with WGS tests, is that the current human genome reference is only approximately one half mapped for the Y chromosome. This means that for a targeted test like a BigY 700, there is no data collected at all for that unmapped region. Even WGS tests don't examine the unmapped region; however, they DO have the raw sequenced data for almost 100% of the Y chromosome; so when the human genome reference is updated for the Y chromosome in the next couple of years, the WGS test data should be able to be re-analyzed against the updated reference, while the BigY 700 test data cannot.

I mention this because we have been seeing, even with BigY 700 test results, new unifying mutations being discovered that bring certain subclades together under a common parent clade. This of course makes identifying particular ancestors easier, especially when these new unifying clades begin to correlate with the traditional Irish genealogies much better.

So I expect to see the next couple of years bring about some significant updates to the Y-Haplotree that will cause it to correlate even better with the traditional Irish genealogies, in the main. There are, and I suspect will continue to be, some egregious discrepancies, but again, in the main, there is really good correlation. Time will tell.

[Fred Claussen]

Thanks again for your in-depth and well-reasoned reply.

I often say that genealogical research is like looking backwards through a very long (500 years, 1000 years or even 1500 years) long telescope (a childhood experience analogy). We are certainly challenged by lack of records even 200 years back in some cases. However, our DNA test results are our own "original records." When compared to those of other testers they can yield great answers...or sometimes they result in new and challenging questions. The history and the data must be internally consistent. What we hope happened vs what actually happened can be two very different things.

Thanks again for your pointer to YSEQ. I used them a few times several years ago via their "wish a SNP" product. Have not looked at them recently though am well aware of their move to Berlin. In checking their WGS400 test - looks very attractive indeed and they are under very serious consideration for my next tests.

Fred

[Webmaster]

Fred,

Your viewing backwards through a telescope analogy is unfortunately all too apt. But here is to hoping that Y-DNA results in the near future will be complete and accurate and we can use these new, nearly perfect "records" to flip that telescope back around.

And just for a point of reference, I approach this research from the assumption that the Irish genealogies and annals are gospel truth - until the Y-DNA clearly indicates otherwise. That means I always lean in favor of the recorded history, until the Y-DNA evidence says "no way". I figure 7 to 15 centuries of records must have some validity to them.

[Fred Claussen]

Hi Admin and Others:

Posting a follow-up message/question re the above and BigY testing as follows:

The "caution" is that testing specificity is evolving quickly enough that BigY 700 will soon "run out of gas" (SNP-speaking, of course).

I have already funded several Big Y 700 tests and do not want to lose that data and the insight it can provide (even if somewhat limited) in the future...

Here is my direct question: If I were to switch FGS testing to another service (YSEQ, for example) will FTDNA allow importing of these non-FTDNA test results so I can continue to use the test/testers that FTDNA already has in its database?


Fred Claussen
Saratoga, California
USA