Uí Fiachrach Cland Láegaire Territories

This forum is for discussion about the Uí Fiachroí Foltsnáthaig specifically.
User avatar
Webmaster
Site Admin
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed, 2019-Jun-26 2:47 pm

The Eignagh River

Post by Webmaster »

There is one other interesting place name clue, and that is the Eignagh River. Gilla Ísu Mór Mac Firbisig mentions several times in his topographical poem that:
There was a chief at another time
In this territory over the race of Laeghaire,
O’h-Eignigh, who was head over all,
No power oppressed the hero.
John O’Donovan annotates in The Genealogies, Tribes, And Customs Of Hy-Fiachrach that:
O’h-Eignigh, now unknown. He appears to have sunk even before the writer’s time.
Eignagh is obviously very similar to Eignigh. Both would appear to be derived from the personal name Éicnech (genitive case: Éicnig) which was apparently popular and uniquely used in the north of Ériu, according to Dr. Donnchadh Ó Corráin in his book Irish Names. The Eignagh River lies at least partially in the Barony of Leyny, Co. Sligo. This makes one wonder if the original Tir Fiachrach territory may have included at least part of the western portion of the Barony of Leyny. It would appear that the Coolcarney territory in the northern portion of the Barony of Gallen just south of the Barony of Tireragh and west of the Barony of Leyny was not part of Tir Fiachrach.
Image
User avatar
tamcevoy
Site Admin
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri, 2019-Jul-19 7:47 pm

Re: Uí Fiachrach Cland Láegaire Territories

Post by tamcevoy »

Maybe this will make up for the last map? Bald's Coolcarney.
"The publication of the map aroused a certain amount of controversy locally because of what was perceived as being its exorbitant cost - £6372, which was a considerable sum in 1830. However it is considered to be the finest example of Irish cartography prior to the Ordnance Survey maps. Apart from the detailing of the physical features, a very important aspect of the map from a historical perspective, is the fact that it contains nearly 5,000 place-names."
The link to the high res map is here https://www.logainm.ie/Eolas/Data/Brain ... eet-09.jpg
Link to the whole county of Mayo Hi Res here http://www.mayolibrary.ie/mapbrowser/Ma ... B191%7CFf/
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
RGwinn57
Fochloc Senchada
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue, 2020-Mar-17 5:04 am

Re: Uí Fiachrach Cland Láegaire Territories

Post by RGwinn57 »

@Tim and @Admin

I think it likely there are at least three (3) separate O'Cuinn families in northern Connacht namely: (1) O'Cuinn of Clann Cuain; (2) O'Cuinn of Coolcarney; and (3) O'Cuinn of Doonfeeny. The last two are mentioned in John O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees, Or, The Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation (1881) on page 503 and are considered by the author to be Ui Fiachrach. I don't have a firm opinion on that, one way or the other. Looking forward to seeing more test results over time to give us a clearer picture.
User avatar
Webmaster
Site Admin
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed, 2019-Jun-26 2:47 pm

Coolcarney Cuinn Family

Post by Webmaster »

Ron,

There were definitely at least 3 different Cuinn families. However, what I keep getting is that the Coolcarney family was Mac Cuinn, not Ó Cuinn. But there is obviously some mix up in the accounts. The topographical poem says:
Ma Cuinn and O’Rothlainn the ready,
O’h-Iarmain of dreadful arms,
Who injures the choicest of the foreigners,
And O’Finain, a great sheltering tree.

[From Bel easa of the clear cataracts.
The extent of the country which was not oppressed.
To the Brosnach of impetuous current,
Which defends the head of Calraighe].
And John O’Donovan annotes:
Ma Cuinn.—now Mac Quin.

From Beal easa.—This quatrain is inserted from Duald Mac Firbis's larger work compiled in 1645. It is probably not correct, for it is stated in the prose account prefixed to this poem, that Cuil Cearnadha extends from Beal atha na n-idheadh to Bealach Breachmhaighe. Beal easa is the present Irish name of the little town of Foxford, on the river Moy, in the barony of Gallen, and county of Mayo; it is not now considered to be in the territory of Coolcarney, and it is more than probable that it never was, and that Coolcarney never extended farther to the south than Beal atha na n-idheadh, on the Yellow River, which lies about a mile north of Foxford. This quatrain is, however, also found in a more modern hand in the Book of Lecan, fol. 85, as if quoted from a poem composed in the year 1302, and it has been, therefore, here inserted in the text; but with this caution to the reader, that it seems to be most probably spurious, not only from the inaccuracies already noticed, but also because it is not to be found in the original text of the Book of Lecan, which was compiled by the author of the poem himself.

The Brosnach of impetuous current.—This river, which is remarkable for its mountain torrents, rises in the townland of Cloonkeelaun, in the parish of Castleconor, on the boundary between the barony of Tireragh, in the county of Sligo, and the barony of Gallen in that of Mayo, and after flowing for a short distance in a northern direction, it turns to the southwest, and takes a circuitous course through the parish of Castleconor and that part of Kilmore-Moy, which lies on the east side of the river Moy, and pays its tribute to
the Moy at Bunree, a short distance to the north of the town of Ballina See Ordnance Map of Sligo, sheet 29, &c. It may be remarked here, that in the prose account prefixed to this poem the northern limit of Cuil Cearnadha is stated to be Bealach Breachmhaighe; but though there would appear to be a discrepancy here between the two accounts, they are not very different in this particular, as the townland of Breachmhagh, anglicè Breaghwy, or Breaffy, extends very close to the river Brosnach.
But the prose account says:
The estate of O’Morain, i. e. Ard na ríagh, and his chieftainship the district thence to Túaim da Odhar. O’Brogain of Breachmhagh.
There were four chiefs over Cuil Chearnadha, which extends from Beul Atha na n-idheadh to the road of Breachmhagh, namely, O’Fionain, O’Rothlain, O'h-Iornain (or O’Tuathalain), and O’Cuinn. O’h-Eana of Imleach loisge; O’Gealagain of Cill lochtair, i. e. Grainseach; O’Breslen of Cill Fhaindle, or Cill Ainnle.
I surmise that the O’Cuinn of Tireragh were conflated with the Mac Cuinn of Coolcarney in the prose account, an easy enough mistake to make. The fact the 4 chieftains of Coolcarney are placed in the middle of the list of the chieftains of Tireragh is suspect to me, at least. Also, O’Breslen kind of appears out of nowhere in the prose list because they are not enumerated in the poem with the other mentioned chieftains of Tireragh. However, their named territory of Killanly Townland (Cill Fhainnle) fits with the other enumerated chieftains of Tireragh, which can be seen on the map posted previously.

Further, the poem says Coolcarney extended from Foxford (Bél Easa) to the Brusna (Brosnach) River, which would then also include the Civil Parish of Toomore as the most southern portion of the territory. BTW, Foxford would appear to be a bad translation because the word eas can mean either waterfall or weasel; and from the poem description waterfall seems more appropriate.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/easa

BTW, looking at the location of the Civil Parish of Doonfeeny on the west side of the Moy River in the Barony of Tirawley, then that would appear to be a FOURTH Cuinn family. Mr. Moran's test result will hopefully give us a better idea of which Cuinn family you and Tim descend from.
Image
User avatar
tamcevoy
Site Admin
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri, 2019-Jul-19 7:47 pm

Re: Uí Fiachrach Cland Láegaire Territories

Post by tamcevoy »

I just remembered something I had read in the Genealogies: "From Aongus, the son of Amhalgaidh, are descended the Cineal Aongusa, in Hy-Amhalgaidh; namely, the O'Muireadhaighs29, chieftains of the Lagan30; and of the descendants of this Aongus was Diucaill the Fierce, of the hill of Budh31, daughter of Bodhbh Dearg; and of the descendants of Aongus are the people of Dun Finne32; namely, the families of O'Cuinn, Mag Odhrain, O'Comhdhan, O'Duibhlearga, O'Bearga, O'Blighe, O'Duanma, or Duanmaigh;" So we have the possibility that these O'Cuinns are not of our sub-clade.
User avatar
Webmaster
Site Admin
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed, 2019-Jun-26 2:47 pm

Uí Amalgada Ó Cuinn

Post by Webmaster »

Tim,

Good catch! You Uí Fiachrach sure loved the Cuinn surname. :lol:

Based on the Ó Lachtna / Loughney results, we should anticipate that any Uí Amalgada Ó Cuinn will be R1b-BY35727+, which is parallel to R1b-FGC23742; although this is not definite yet. But I am still confident that you and Ron are most likely Cland Láegaire based on the genealogies and your Y-DNA. That Moore gentleman in with you is my current guide. If we can get the Moran gentleman tested to R1b-FGC52024+, then I think that will nail it.

Also, based on Ron's post of Ó Cuinn families and again looking at the location of the Civil Parish of Doonfeeny on the west side of the Moy River in the Barony of Tirawley, then POSSIBLY that Ó Cuinn family could be the Cenél Óengusa one.
Image
User avatar
tamcevoy
Site Admin
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri, 2019-Jul-19 7:47 pm

Re: Uí Fiachrach Cland Láegaire Territories

Post by tamcevoy »

Lol so really we have book Cuinns score = 3, to real Gwinns score = 0. In others word we have 3 Cuinns in books that might be either BY35727, A1206, or FGC46309 (but in reality do not have any yet). Like you say let's hope the Moran testing is with us, otherwise I might start to consider the name Cuinn similar to the Smith or Brown of our time since FGC23742 covers all of these 3.
My other concern here David is that we have potentially 2 names under FGC46310 already associated with the the Moran and Laoguaire sept: The Toals-O'Tuathalain?(not sure if the Ó Tuathail? are the same but could it be another anglicization?) and the Bird-Ó hÉanacháin?
Chiefs of Laoghaire- O'Fionain, O'Rothlain, O'h-Iornain (or O'Tuathalain), and O'Cuinn.
User avatar
Webmaster
Site Admin
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed, 2019-Jun-26 2:47 pm

Uí Fiachrach Genealogies

Post by Webmaster »

tamcevoy wrote:Wed, 2020-Mar-25 2:22 pm Lol so really we have book Cuinns score = 3, to real Gwinns score = 0. In others word we have 3 Cuinns in books that might be either BY35727, A1206, or FGC46309 (but in reality do not have any yet). Like you say let's hope the Moran testing is with us, otherwise I might start to consider the name Cuinn similar to the Smith or Brown of our time since FGC23742 covers all of these 3.
My other worry here David is that we have potentially 2 names under FGC46310 already associated with the the Moran and Laoguaire sept: The Toals-O'Tuathalain?(not sure if the Ó Tuathail? are the same but could this be another anglicization?) and the Bird-Ó hÉanacháin?
Chiefs of Laoghaire- O'Fionain, O'Rothlain, O'h-Iornain (or O'Tuathalain), and O'Cuinn.
  1. R1b-FGC46310 gives every evidence of being the Uí Fiachrach Muaide, the chief family of which was the Ó Dubda and their cadet branch, the Ó Cáemáin, plus all the correlatives.
    Image
  2. It all depends on which early genealogies of the Uí Fiachrach you choose to accept, but let us go with Knox for now.
    Image
  3. According to Knox's table, the Uí Fiachrach Aidne and the Cland Láegaire shared a common progenitor, Eochaid Brecc. This is certainly possible if R1b-A1206 and R1b-FGC52024 occurred after him.
  4. However, the Men of Cera, which includes the Cland Cuain Ó Cuinn and Mac Flannacáin, are supposed to descend from Ailill Molt, Eochaid Brecc's brother. That doesn't work too well since Gráinne's Flannacáins are R1b-A1206, which gives every evidence of being the Uí Fiachrach Aidne, unless her family is NOT the Mac Flannacáin of Cera, which seems unlikely at this point, although certainly possible.
  5. BTW, R1b-FGC23742 most definitely does NOT include R1b-BY35727. The 2 are parallel clades, which does make it nice in separating the Cenél Feradaig Dáithe from the Uí Amalgada.
  6. I am still not sure about the Ó hÉanacháin / Bird and O’Tuathalain / Toal families yet. We MAY be seeing evidence that the Coolcarney chieftains at any rate were Uí Fiachrach Muaide; but see my next point below.
  7. And, errrr, the O’Fionain, O’Rothlain, O’h-Iornain (or O’Tuathalain), and O’Cuinn were the chieftains of Coolcarney, NOT Cland Láegaire.
    The estate of O’Morain, i. e. Ard na riagh, and his chieftainship the district thence to Tuaim da Odhar. O’Brogain of Breachmhagh.

    There were four chiefs over CuilChearnadha, which extends from Beul Atha na n-idheadh to the road of Breachmhagh, namely, O’Fionain, O’Rothlain, O’h-Iornain (or O’Tuathalain), and O’Cuinn. O’h-Eana of Imleach loisge; O’Gealagain of Cill lochtair, i. e. Grainseach; O’Breslen of Cill Fhaindle, or Cill Ainnle.
    I still can't decipher if they are supposed to be Dál Cuinn or from the older Calraighe tribe. And it was Mac Cuinn, not Ó Cuinn for the Coolcarney family. I go by the poem, not the prose list, because as I noted to Ron, the Coolcarney are inserted in the middle of the Cland Láegaire in the prose list, which you can tell from the red highlight in the quote above; but the 2 groups are most definitely kept distinct in the poem.
What it all boils down to is what I keep saying and that is unfortunately the early Uí Fiachrach genealogies are FUBAR. It is going to take a lot of work to sort them out and separate fact from myth. But we are getting there!
Image
User avatar
tamcevoy
Site Admin
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri, 2019-Jul-19 7:47 pm

Re: Uí Fiachrach Cland Láegaire Territories

Post by tamcevoy »

David thank you for an always informative response. This is all just speculation on my part, and concerning the Chiefs of Coolcarney, sorry yes I meant to write Coolcarney but I have Fiachrach fever...I have a source that I emailed to see where he got the info but he had stated that they were Fiachrach. I have been so focused on the Genealogies that I never bothered to look at Knoxs' chart, part of my learning curve and very interesting... The Forbes result will be interesting in relation to this as well. PS and right again finished writing before I fact checked BY35727 Thanks David
User avatar
Webmaster
Site Admin
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed, 2019-Jun-26 2:47 pm

No Worries

Post by Webmaster »

Tim,

No worries. Ever. We ALL have a lot of learning to do - like almost 2000 years of Irish history.

BTW, I would love to see your source's documentation that the Coolcarney are Uí Fiachrach. It's not that I doubt them, I am just extremely curious and want more reference sources. Thanks!

Finally, if the Forbes are indeed Mac Firbisig, then yes, their results will be very revealing!
Image
Post Reply