Ui Briuin Seola Vassals (mac Diarmata?), Ua Conchobair, Cland Maíl Ruanada?

[BuckeyeMike]

Good lord, right in front of me. I completely overlooked the 'mac' & 'ua' in the surnames.
Since Tadg is 44, and Conchobar is 46, Mail Ruinaid is 45; right? that all makes perfect sense!

What's your opinion on the dynastic chart of "Kings of Magh Luirg" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Magh_Luirg [ref. "Mac Dermot of Moylurg: The Story of a Connacht Family", Dermot Mac Dermot, 1996.]? I imagine it is very well excepted, and he does claim Máel Ruanaid (d. ?) is the son of Tadc in Túir ua Conchobair (d. 956 AD), or is he speculating to tie up loose ends?
My bet is on Tadg as Mail Ruinaid's father... but I'm not going to put money on it!

I think I'll stick to the geography for a while.

Thanks for all this mess, what a fantastic learning experience!

[Webmaster]

Mike,

This is a learning experience for everyone, so no worries.

Looking at chart #63, I cannot find who 45 is; but I may just be blind. However, if those numbers are for the kingship of Connacht, then it jumped to Fergal ua Ruairc after Tadc in Tuir ua Conchobair. Then it jumped back to Conchobar, son of Tadc in Tuir ua Conchobair, then to a cousin, Cathal mac Taidc who reigned for 3 days before it came to Cathal, son of Conchobar and grandson of Tadc in Tuir ua Conchobair. So as you can see, chieftaincy was not inherited by primogeniture. Maél Ruanaid Már mac Taidc in Tuir was never a king of Connacht, so he would not be in the numbered list. And it is the "mac Taidc in Tuir" that is in question at the moment, so I am going to bow out of opinions on the Cland Maíl Ruanada genealogies until we get the testing data.

If the results come back showing the Cland Maíl Ruanada are R1b-A6925+, then did that genetic break occur in Maél Ruanaid Már mac Taidc in Tuir, or one of his immediate descendants? And what the nature of the break was may never be known. Was it a political expediency to forge a familial relationship to what was merely a political alliance originally? Was there an unknown bastardy involved? There is a whole range of reasons for this genetic break; and we may never learn the true one.

[flaniganw]

Mike and David,

Thanks so much for posting such a healthy exchange on the hierarchy and timeline theories relevant to those of us in the Ui Briuin Seola. It's this type of give and take that helps to clarify, validate, educate, and move understanding forward.

Appreciate it!
Bill Flanigan

[Webmaster]

Bill,

Glad to have this kind of exchange and even more so if it helps others.

As I think I have mentioned before, I am wondering if your Ó Flandacáin ancestors and Gráinne's Ó Flandacáin ancestors may not have been a blend of Uí Briúin Seóla and Uí Fiachroí Aidne men that became the Ó Flandacáin family of the Uí Fiachroí Find sept of the Uí Maini at Moinmoy and Eyrecourt, Co. Galway. We appear to be seeing signs that the Uí Maini were a blend of the Ó Cellaig and related septs who are R1b-FGC6545+ and a mixture of Uí Briúin Seóla and Uí Fiachroí Aidne men. This is still very tentative, but it is what the surnames and Y-DNA seem to indicate.

John O’Donovan in Hy-Maine says about Moinmoy AKA Moenmagh AKA Máen Mag:

Moenmagh.—O’Flaherty states (Ogygia, Part III. c. 17) that this territory, in which Loughrea is situated, is co-extensive with Clanrickard, in the county of Galway; but this cannot be true, as Clanrickard comprised the six southern baronies of the county of Galway, and Moenmagh never embraced any portion of the barony of Kiltartan, Longford, or Dunkellin. Moenmagh is the rich plain lying round Loughrea, and comprising Moyode, Finnure, and other places mentioned in old Irish documents. It was bounded on the east by the territory of Siol Anmchadha (now the barony of Longford), on the south by the celebrated mountain of Sliabh Echtghe (now Slieve Aughtee), and on the west by the diocese of Kilmacduagh [AKA the Uí Fiachroí Aidne territory]; its northern boundary is uncertain; but we know that it extended so far to the north as to comprise the townland of Moyode, as that place is distinctly mentioned as included in the plain of Moenmagh.

The Siol Anmchadha were a sept of the Uí Maini and the Ó Madadáin (O’Madden) were the chieftains. They are showing up as R1b-FGC6545+ along with the Ó Cellaig. The Uí Maini are a historical and genetic snarl that is going to take a while to untangle.

[BuckeyeMike]

Bill,

I'm glad that someone else is able to use my education from David. I enjoy picking his brain for all the small details I seem to miss. I hope someday soon I'll be able understand our Irish heritage half as much as he. I will give him a break to focus on his own research before my next questions...at least for a day or two

Thanks again David. I can't wait for all the testing to come back so we can add to our knowledge.

[flaniganw]

David,

Yes, I recall our previous discussions that the Eyrecourt area in the corner of Co. Galway may be quite the melting pot for Ui Briuin Seola and Ui Maini. As I've mentioned before, my paper research has located my earliest known O'Flandacain ancestors to be in the area of Longford Town in 1800. I suspect they had not been in Co. Longford long and had migrated from Co. Galway or Roscommon. My closest genetic match (IN72752 Flanagan) lives and has ancestors in the Williamstown/Farm area of Co. Galway since at least 1800. So both of our modern-day lines are well north of the Eyrecourt area. That doesn't rule out the likelihood that our clans were displaced by earlier economic or political events.

It will be interesting to see with further testing if the speculation on the Ui Briuin Seola/Ui Fiachroi Aidne mix gets substantiated. Thanks again for your thoughts on the possible linkage of FGC5939 and FGC6545+

Bill

[Webmaster]

Everyone,

Please see the new Cland Maíl Ruanada Origin topic.

Bill, the time frames probably don't quite align, but there was a definite northward movement by some members of the R1b-FGC5939 clade.

[Webmaster]

Bill,

With the continued research into the Cland Maíl Ruanada origins, I came across this tidbit:

M1048, A predatory excursion was made by the royal heirs or chieftains of Ui-Maine into Dealbhna, where the royal chieftains were all slain, namely, Ua Maelruanaidh, Ua Flannagain, the Cleireach Ua Taidhg, and Mac Buadhachain, royal heir of Dealbhna Nuadhat.

Cruffon/Crimthaind (the baronies of Killian and Ballymoe in Co. Galway) was at least part of Delbna Nuadat, if not the entirety, and was a few miles to the north of Eyrecourt, so there could easily be 2 different Flanagan families in that general area. Given what seems to be developing with Cruffon in regard to the R1b-FGC5939 clade, it makes me wonder if you and Flanagan #FTDNA-IN72752 might be descended from the Cruffon Flanagans, while Gráinne's Flanagans just might be the Eyrecourt "Uí Fiachroí Find" family. It would certainly appear to explain the Y-DNA, if the Uí Briúin Cruffon connection holds up - why you are R1b-BY20602+ along with the McDermott and McDonough gentlemen.

Further, Flanagan #FTDNA-IN72752's MDKA origin, Williamstown, Corralough Townland, Templetogher Parish, Barony of Ballymoe, Co. Galway, appears to be right in the middle of Cruffon. The thing to keep in mind with the medieval Irish is that a territorial name was given based on the original inhabitants, and retained that name long after the original inhabitants had lost ownership or had moved on or died out. So it is very conceivable that by 1048 AD the inhabitants of Cruffon were Uí Briúin, not Delbna. Something to think about, at least.

[flaniganw]

David,

Thanks so much for the continued due diligence on researching the origins of the Flanagan families of Grainne and me. The M1048 chronology passage certainly seems to link a Flannaģain royal with the incursion into portions of that Eyrecourt/Ballymoe area of Co. Galway. Further, things are looking more and more compelling that my Ui Briuin R1b-FGC5939 clade geographically aligns with my closest Y-DNA match FTDNA-IN72752, whose line still lives in that Ballymoe area.

It's a strong theory worth keeping in mind as things develop further. Thanks again, David

Bill