Delbhna - FGC5939

[Webmaster]

Mike R.,

My pleasure. Hopefully the synergism of everyone working together will propel us farther and faster on our untangling efforts.

I have been down that rabbit hole myself:

(AFM555.2) “The battle of Cul Dreimhne was gained against Diarmaid, son of Cearbhall, by Fearghus and Domhnall, the two sons of Muircheartach, son of Earca; by Ainmire, son of Sedna; and by Ainnidh, son of Duach; and by Aedh, son of Eochaidh Tirmcharna.”

The Ainnidh son of Duach you are wondering about is found on Bart's Table 7, Cenél Conaill as:

Conall Gulban > Dói > Ninnid

Those 2 names, Dau and Nannid, get badly butchered throughout the annals for some reason. But that father and son are definitely Uí Néill, Cenél Conaill and not Uí Briúin Seóla, unfortunately.

The quote from the Book Of Ballymote is indeed:

1601. Ocht mc. Ailella mc. Echach mugmedon, Ferghus Fiacra Ros otat Cenel Rosa Segna Cosmail Niall Eocho Liath Fidgenid.

Which is roughly translated as:

1601. Eight sons of Ailill son of Eóchád Muigmedón: (1) Fergus, (2) Fiachróe, (3) Ross, founder of the Cenél Rossa, (4) Ségán/Senán/Sétna (?, and I would guess Sétna as a "g" is easily confused from a "t" in Irish script), (5) Conmáel (?, as an "s" is easily confused from a "n" in Irish script, and there is the ever present incorrect case usage - nominative case máel vs. genitive case maíl), (6) Niall, (7) Eóchád Líath, and (8) Fidgente (?).

The last two are my surmise as to the name split, Eóchád Grey (líath), and Fidgente a surmise taken from the Uí Fidgenti tribal name, assuming that Fidgenti is the genitive case of Fidgente. Reading through the article on the Uí Fidgenti, it does make one speculate if they may have descended from the Uí Ailella, since there seems to be no real consensus as to their origin.

Also, the article says, “Closely related to the Uí Fidgenti were the Uí Liatháin”, so that is a possible connection to Eóchád Líath. Finally, the Uí Fidgenti progenitor is purportedly Fiachu Fidgenti, so there is a link to the Fiachróe name. There are definitely some Uí Fidgenti surnames that need to be investigated. As it stands now, the Y-DNA data indicates that the Uí Ailella should be in their own direct subbranch(es) of R1b-DF105.

Finally, if the Uí Crimthainn are R1b-FGC5939+ as we are currently speculating, AND R1b-FGC5939 is Uí Briúin Seóla as surmised, the Uí Briúin Seóla considered themselves to be the true line of Uí Briúin kings as descendants of Dau Tengae Umae, and the Uí Briúin Aí, Síl Muiredaig Ó Conchobair to be pretenders. Thus, the constant fighting between the Uí Briúin Seóla and Uí Briúin Aí. This could explain that fighting between the Uí Crimthainn and the Síl Muiredaig Ó Conchobair that kicked off ~1030 AD. The Uí Crimthainn may have decided they had gained enough power to challenge the Síl Muiredaig Ó Conchobair; although if so, as it turned out they were quite mistaken.

[Webmaster]

*** UPDATE ***

Re my speculations about the Uí Fidgeinti, the FTDNA Uí Fidgeinti project believes them to be R1b-CTS4466+. With only ~47 members, IDK how certain this is, but it is interesting. The Donovan and Collins surnames seem to be their strongest basis.

No O’Connell surname has shown up under R1b-CTS4466, which is supposed to be an important Uí Fidgeinti surname:

Modern descendants of Daire Cerbba include the O'Connells of Derrynane, Daniel Charles, Count O’Connell having explicitly declared this to the heralds of Louis XVI of France.

Interestingly enough, we have 2 Connell gentlemen under the mystery R1b-FT168547 direct subclade of R1b-DF105. This could be pure coincidence, of course. Time will tell.

Also, the name looks to be more probably Fidgeinte: fid + geinte = "sprouted wood" (sapling? twig?). Geinte probably derives from gainithir = "to be born". Genti = "pagan, heathen, Gentile", which doesn't seem to fit; especially with this anecdote:

As noted in the Book of Lecan, Fiacha received the designation [Fidgeinte] because he constructed a wooden horse at the fair of Aenach Cholmain.

[mikekenny51]

Don't mean to throw another tangent out there but there are a lot Mannions as FGC5939. They have a very good website http://www.mannionclan.org/# and this presentation gives their history going back to Soghain. They also were conquered by the Ui Briuin. They have their own one name project but none on Sons of Aodh.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=330548018078873

Not sure of the relationship between Soghain and Delbhna. Other than not YDNA genetically Ui Briuin ?

[Webmaster]

Mike K.,

Yep, the Mannions appear to be another egregious error in the genealogies or later scholars's understanding of the earlier genealogies. IDK if this is another case where the Uí Briúin took over the territory of the original inhabitants, the Sogáin, and were later referenced by the name of the original territory inhabitants, or what exactly. But it is indisputable that ALL men under R1b-A259 are genetically Uí Briúin. This is a FACT. There is no doubt whatsoever about this.

Dubaltach Mac Firbisg said the Sogáin were Cruithin; but whether he meant the later inhabitants, or the original inhabitants is not clear. Regardless, the Y-DNA is clearly showing that the "Sogáin" and "Delbna Nuadat" inhabitants in the later medieval time frame were definitely genetically Uí Briúin. Further, the evidence is growing that the great Uí Fiachroí Mac Firbisig family, noted for their scholarly histories, genealogies, etc., was never genetically Uí Fiachroí at all, but rather R1b-DF85 Uí Néill, Cenél Conaill.

Again, either the understanding of some of the records was faulty and/or the records themselves were made in ignorance of the true facts. Either way, although we are discovering these errors, nonetheless, the genealogies and records are still holding up very well overall, despite these occasional egregious discrepancies.

The sad thing at the present is that we cannot seem to interest the academic community in these amazing discoveries. Oh, well...