Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

Hello, New to this forum and wanted to give a little information on my Kinney family. My g.grandfather, Thomas Kinney was b. abt 1829 in Ireland. Earliest documented record is his marriage in 1853 in Mt Savage Maryland. Other known relatives are his brother Daniel b. abt 1836 Kings, Ireland and a sister, Mary b. abt 1830 and married to Patrick Casey 1852 at Killereran, Ireland. So not too many clues where they came from.
I am just learning about DNA so have a long way to go to understand it. I have done the y700 test and am Haplogroup fgc5939. I submitted to ytree.net and was listed as r by20602. I just recently submitted to yfull and they listed r a260, by20816.
Willing to help further study of the Kenny family. Any suggestions as to what to do next?

TW,

Welcome!

The Kenny/Kinney/etc. surname has at least a couple of different Gaelic surname origins. Because you are R1b-FGC5939+, which is giving strong evidence of being the Uí Briúin Seóla Vassal Families clade, it is thought your surname possibly derives from the Gaelic Ó Cendétig surname. You are an early split from the 3 Kenny/Kenney men, under the R1b-BY20602 subclade of R1b-FGC5939. That link will show you the Cladogram of the R1b-BY20602 clade. This is basically a family tree, but rather than being able to see the generations by men's names, we can only see the generations by Y chromosome mutation. The goal is to be able to eventually overlay the Cladogram onto the traditional Irish genealogies as best as possible.

The Uí Briúin Seóla Vassal Families are enumerated in a ~1100 AD document known as the Muinter Murchada Tract. The Muinter Murchada were the chieftain line of the Uí Briúin Seóla, and they eventually adopted the Ó Flaithbertaig (O’Flaherty) surname. This is what the Tract says about the Ó Cendétig, which was Anglicized as Kennedy is this instance:

O’Dathlaoich is the taiseach of the fourteen ballys of the Hy-Briuin ratha; and of these are the O’Kennedies, and the O’Duinns, and the O’Innogs of Cnoc-tuadh, and O’Laighin of Lackagh, and O’Callanan, comharba of Killcahill.

Anglicization of the original Gaelic surnames is one of the most difficult hurdles to overcome in researching Irish families. The same surname got Anglicized numerous ways, and some of them were so far removed from the original name as to obscure it completely. For example, O’Dathlaoich was Anglicized as O’Dolly and O’Daley. There are some O’Dolly men still living in the Tuam area of Connacht, which is generally where the medieval Uí Briúin Seóla Vassal Families were located. Sadly, none have Y-DNA tested so far. But to get more of the recognized names tested and organized as to their Y-DNA relationships would be fantastic.

Anyway, not to overload you, I leave it with an open invitation to post relevant questions and comments at any time. And NO question is ridiculous. It is a steep learning curve for anyone. We have almost 2000 years of history to learn and understand. BTW, the DCG home page has lots of links to introductory articles. You may find them under the compass icon on the menu (the 3 bars in the the upper right).

Thanks again for joining.

Based on the recent Kenny addition to the DCG Cladogram, it appears that the R1b-FGC5939+ Kenny men are most likely the Ó Cináeda of the "Uí Maini", Cland Flaithemáin/Muinter Cináeda; rather than the Uí Briúin Ratha Ó Cennétig as was originally postulated.

I (FTD-B323360) put Pat Kenny's (FTD-IN105755)info up the other day and have been following the discussion. My interest has been to understand the relationship of the large number of Kennys within East Galway, Moore Parish(southern Roscommon) and Offaly. A good source is John Grenham's 1983 book, Moore, The customs and Traditions of a Rural Community. (Not the current Grenham.)

Current thoughts-
1. The DNA evidence shows that a line of Kennys is connected between East Galway(FTD-IN105755) and Moore (FTD-487325). Grenham believes the original location was south and not in Moore. But I think this is very much open for debate. There is some evidence of Kennys being originally from the north Innismagrath which leads to an ancient association with the Rourkes/Flannerty groups.

2. I agree that Ui Maini is a confederation and not necessarily a paternal line. Grenham talks about the O'Kennys being a sub-chief of Hy Manny. The Kennys may have been one of the conquered people. There is no DNA evidence that Kenny is connected to Kelly or Madden. Although there is historical evidence that the Kennys fought at times both under the Maddens and against them. When the Hy Manny clan ended in 1585 the Kennys are not mentioned as receiving any land from the English. So they were not a major historical Sept
.
3. All these Hy Manny names intermarried. i.e. Mannion, Donnellan, Kelly etc. As well as Kennys marrying Kennys. With lots of different Kennys in the area including one that served as Queen Elizabeth's agent in the 1500s. So there is ample evidence that there are multiple Kenny lines in this small area going back a long way.

4. There are a lot of Kennys such as TWKinney and William that have tested quite thoroughly and would be open to any further testing recommendations anyone might have. We need help on getting a fuller picture of the Kenny line. None of us are DNA experts so would appreciate recommendations/suggestions.

Mike Kenny

Here is a excerpt

Moore A Rural Community and Its Traditions
Title: Moore A Rural Community and Its Traditions, Author(s): John Joseph Grenham , Publisher: Moore Community Council
Year: 2004. The following reference to the Kenny's is on page19.
"Kenny and O'Kenny- these were from a southern branch of O'Kellys and would be natives of South East Galway, (Clonfert to Portumna area) and the first O'Cynay (O'Kenny)came to Clonburren as steward of the Nunnery there, while a Cornelius O'Cynay according to Papal Reg. Vol.VI was rector of Moycarn (i.e. Parish Priest of Moore) in 1422, but only held the job for less than a year as it was discovered he was not ordained a priest and did not employ a priest to do his work. The O'Kennys came from a place known as Moynterkenny alias "Boresh" a medieval parish between Clonfert and Banagher. This has sometime been mistaken as Moore or the area from Gurthnasharavogue to the Suck now in Creagh parish, but this is not so. Moynterkenny was shared by another family known as MacGiollaFhionain, now known as Glennon or Finnan. Most families of the name would be of Cos Roscommon and Galway. The Ui Maine sept were powerful in the above areas, and were of the same stock as the O Maddens. Kenny is listed as a 'Principal Irish Name' in Sir William Petty's '1659 Census' there were at the time - in Co Roscommon 11 families of McKeny and Kenny , and Keny/Kenny with 6 families in Athlone Barony.

The Kennys would have held in Clonburren, as in 1603 King James gave a pardon to Donogh O'Kenny of Clonburren, Yeoman, while in 1660 Charles II made a declaration of those of his supporters restored to their estates. In the list is Ensign Owen O'Kenny, however, it seems that Owen O'Kenny never did get back his estate

Thanks for all the good info, Mike!

Looking at Irish Townlands:

1. https://www.townlands.ie/galway/clontuskert2/
2. https://www.townlands.ie/galway/moycarn/
3. https://www.townlands.ie/roscommon/moore2/
4. https://www.townlands.ie/galway/longfor ... /clonfert/

it is apparent that Clontuskert Parish in Co. Galway in literally adjacent to the Barony Of Moycarn in Co. Roscommon on the northeast side of Clontuskert Parish and the southwest side of the Barony Of Moycarn. And Moore Parish is in the the Barony Of Moycarn. So all that fits with the ascription of the Barony Of Moycarn as the territory of the the Ó Cináeda of the "Uí Maini", Cland Flaithemáin/Muinter Cináeda.

But even if John Joseph Grenham is correct in his statement:

The O’Kennys came from a place known as Moynterkenny alias "Boresh" a medieval parish between Clonfert and Banagher. This has sometime been mistaken as Moore or the area from Gurthnasharavogue to the Suck now in Creagh parish, but this is not so. Moynterkenny was shared by another family known as MacGiollaFhionain, now known as Glennon or Finnan.

that is only a short distance to the southeast of the Barony Of Moycarn, so its not a stretch at all to believe all the Kennys in this area are the Ó Cináeda of the "Uí Maini", Cland Flaithemáin/Muinter Cináeda. And Mr. Grenham even indicates an Ó Cináeda man was “rector of Moycarn (i.e. Parish Priest of Moore) in 1422 AD” for a year. So with everything that seems to be developing in the R1b-FGC5939 clade, it is not difficult to believe that the Ó Cináeda were not genetically related to the Síl Anmcháda Ó Madudáin, who according to this post are most likely not even genetically related to the Ó Cellaig.

FYI, in a quick aside, there is a cluster of Fannin(g) men in the R1b-A5902 Uí Briúin Bréifne, Cenél Brénaind clade. Whether or not they have any connection to the Mac Gilla Findáin has not been investigated.

There is a big tangle in the records about the origin of the R1b-FGC5939 clade. The O’Conor Don's test results clearly prove the Uí Briúin Aí split off before the Uí Briúin Seóla and Uí Briúin Bréifne. So their descent from Eóchád Tírmchárnae is impossible IF he was indeed a full brother to Dau Tengae Umae and Fergnóe, whose descendants are pretty well proved to be R1b-A260+. The major R1b-FGC5939 subclade of R1b-A260 has been a mystery so far because there has been no explanation for its origin in the records.

However, with the removal of Eóchád Tírmchárnae as the progenitor of the Uí Briúin Aí, then he becomes an excellent candidate for the progenitor of the R1b-FGC5939 clade. If this does prove to be correct, his descendants being/staying in the Mag Seóla area would explain some of the recorded anomalous events like the land grant to the Church at Annaghdown and the Síl Cellaig being at Loch Cime. I have tried to show a possible genealogy of this, which while diverging from the accepted genealogies, does not abandon them, but reinterprets them to fit the Y-DNA data.

Re additional Y-DNA testing, we are currently on the brink of a major technological advancement in testing. To date the Y chromosome has only been partially mapped, only about 50% or so; and current Y chromosome sequencing does not even completely cover the known 50%, but leaves gaps which are not tested! But new testing technologies have finally allowed a complete telomere-to-telomere GAPLESS mapping of one man's Y chromosome. This is extremely exciting because we are on the verge of FINALLY being able to compare the entire Y chromosome between men and seeing ALL the mutations they may share.

This will almost certainly cause shifting in the Y-Haplotree as some currently independent clades get unified under an umbrella clade, and individual lineages get far more detailed branches. The problem is this new technology costs over US$5,000.00 per test, so we need to wait for the price to lower and availability to become more commonplace.

So at this point, I recommend waiting to see when telomere-to-telomere GAPLESS Y chromosome testing becomes readily available. It is my speculation when this does happen, we may even see that EVERY generation has a mutation, which would be fantastic in terms of being able to see all generations in branches.

Not knowing Irish I am a little bit at a handicap. Going to put out some source info and hope to solicit some comments and suggestions.
1. is your Cinaeda the same as Cinaeith, Cionaith, and Cionnaoith ? Is Flaithemain the same as Flaitheamhail ?

2. Do you think Grenham's Moynterkenny is the same as Muintir Kenny ? Grenham's book was focused on modern day Moore parish borders and not the Ui Main borders which clearly went beyond the rivers. I am assuming they are separate. See Madden discussion below showing the maternal family link between the Maddens and Muintir Kenny in Leitrim County.

3. The Mannions have a couple of good maps which show how close the different groups were. They derive from the Sogain; By 600 AD a conquered people of the Ui Maini. I have seen some Kenny Mannion STR matches that I need to research. See excellent Joe Mannion presentation for maps and as an example on how they survived through the years.
https://www.facebook.com/mannionclanhis ... 018078873/.

4. Maddens are maternally connected to the Fordes of Muintir Kenny who are married to the Lyons of Roscommon. (There are multiple Kenny/Lyons connections as both are common names in the area.) In Lord Russell's account of taking the Madden stronghold in 1595 he lists a Mortaugh Kenny, a shott and other men from Rourke Country (assuming Muintir Kenny in Leitrim) as being put to the sword. I have found a Brian Kenney FTDNA kit 973178 from Canada who traces back to Muintir Kenny. It is a long shot that he is related to the Galway/Roscommon Kennys but we'll see.

5. I can't lay my hands on it now but there was a reference that Kennys derived from the Rourkes and I think Flanagan.

From a 1894 book O’Maddens of Hy-Many by Thomas More Madden:

The late Dr. Richard Robert Madden, son of Edward Madden, grandson of Brazil Madden of Eyrecourt, county of Galway, and lineal descendant of Eoghan O’Madden, Chief of Silanchia, maternally derived descent from two ancient families, viz., the Fordes of Corry, county Leitrim, and the Lyons of Lyonstown, county Roscommon. The former belonged to an old Irish race - the MacConsnamhas or MacAnaws, Chiefs of the territory of Muinter Kenny, in Leitrim, frequently mentioned in Irish Annals, and referred to by the "Four Masters''.

"This name," says O’Donovan, "is supposed by the peasantry to be composed of three Irish words, signifying 'the sons of the Ford', and from this false assumption, it is anglicised Forde, or Foorde. Certain it is, that the sept of the MacConsnamhas was sprung from Labvan, second sun of Maolmorrdha, Prince of Breffney. The Chiefs of Muinter Kenny, or Clan Kenny, possessed the country known by the name Muinter Kenny, now included in the parish of Inishmagrath, Barony of Dromahaire. In the Annals of the Four Masters translated by Owen Connellan, we find the following references to the MacConsnamhas, a branch of Hy-Many of Connaught:
1346. Gilcreest O’Ruark and MacConsnamha were taken prisoners in a fierce engagement.
1465. MacConsnamha and his son were treacherously slain by Donal O’Rourke and his sons, who settled themselves in his country.
1537. Teige, the son of Hugh, son of Hugh MacConsnamha, Chief of Muinter Kenny, died.''

Mike,

I will try to tackle these in order.

1. Yes, Cináed = Cinaeith, Cionaith, and Cionnaoith. I assume Flaithemáin = Flaitheamhail. Sadly, spelling typos and variations are all too common in the old records; not to mention the spelling mutation changes over time. I try to use the Old Irish spellings if I can.
2. Yes, Moynterkenny = Muintir Kenny = Muinter Kenny. BUT!!! As I tried to carefully delineate in the new Kenny addition post, there are TWO different Muinter Kenny septs: one is purportedly Uí Maini and AKA Cland Flaithemáin (R1b-BY165369 and R1b-FT396104, both under R1b-FGC5939) and the other is Uí Briúin Bréifne (R1b-BY18113). The "Uí Maini" sept took the surname Ó Cináeda, Anglicized as Kenny, etc.; while the Uí Briúin Bréifne sept took the surname Mac Consnáma, Anglicized as Ford(e). Their last common paternal ancestor was Fergus, son of Muiredach Máel, who was probably the progenitor of the R1b-A260 clade and lived ~450 AD. Their territorial locations are completely different as well: the Ó Cináeda in Co. Galway/Co. Roscommon and the Mac Consnáma in Co. Leitrim.
3. Despite Dubaltach Mac Firbisig's claim, the Ó Mainnín/Mannion are NOT Cruthin Sogáin. They are R1b-FGC5939 Uí Briúin, like yourself; and more specifically R1b-FT63002. This is probably why you have seen some similar STRs between your Kenny and the Mannion.
4. I cannot comment on maternal connections since we are focused on paternal Y-DNA here. Unfortunately, MT-DNA does not provide the same level of segregation/branching as Y-DNA does.
5. See #2 above, as well as this post.

Let me emphasize that while the Dál Cuinn genealogies are correlating well with the Y-DNA in general, we are finding egregious discrepancies. The R1b-Y166841 Uí Briúin Aí clade is one of them, and so is the R1b-FGC5939 Uí Briúin clade. Because the traditional genealogies DO NOT MATCH the Y-DNA, I have been trying to find explanations in the records. My best attempt is that the Uí Briúin Aí descend from Cathal, son of Muiredach Máel. This explains the split under R1b-A259 at R1b-Y166841 (Cathal) and R1b-A260 (Fergus), from the 2 sons of Muiredach Máel.

That being the case, then the most likely candidate for being the progenitor of the R1b-FGC5939 clade is Eóchád Tírmchárnae. Otherwise, there is no recorded individual that fits. Again, please see this attempted genealogy to Y-DNA reconciliation. I am more than open to alternate explanations that have some recorded documentation as basis, but this is all I have been able to find.

Mike and David, thank you for this interesting dialog even though I have nothing to offer. I use this dialog as a focused history lesson you cannot get anywhere else. As with Mike, my Gaelic language is extremely lacking which holds me (us) at a disadvantage but it gets better every time I follow this type of dialog. David, you are providing a wonderful service to us all. And Mike, thanks for letting us know of your interest. This is why I'm here. Hoping our questions will be answered through dialog, research, and analysis of the data.

What I like about the Mannion example is the strong IDENTITY narrative they have tied to a specific East Galway TERRITORY. It holds together through time despite all the forced migrations and name variations. The Kenny’s don’t seem to have that but right now I am going with Grenham that the Kenny’s originated in East Galway and migrated toRoscommon and Offaly. The Leitrim Kenny connection would be much further back in time even though we have Maddens, Kenny’s,and Rourkes fighting together against the English in 1595.
Some additional questions after looking through the cladogram
1.What is BY164971leading to my kit #323360 ?

2. Timing of By165369 ? The Y DNA results are supporting a narrative of a split between East Galway Kenny’s and Moore Parish Kenny’s. The challenge is when did this occur ? In each case, one Kenny stayed and one left around 1850. BY165159 says it is 87 years ago and BY165369 says it is 1100 years ago. Seems odd.

3. Confusion about FGC5939. The narrative would support the Roscommon Kennys being linked. So is there any way FT396104(490 years ago) could be under BY165369 (1100 years ago) ?

4. Also the Kenny’s of BY129440 from Roscommon do not link until DF105. Any chance FGC9773 and FGC5939 are linked earlier In time ? Do the FGC haplogroups use a different methodology from FTDNA ?

I am working on getting some Kennys from Offaly tested. Let me know if you have other suggestions.

Mike,

The more men who test at a sequencing level, the better. Period. Although I would have to say that WGS testing is FAR preferred over BigY testing. Nebula Genomics and YSEQ are 2 companies to look into for WGS testing at a reasonable price. I personally prefer YSEQ, but there are pros and cons to both companies.

1. BY164971 comes from The Big Tree analysis of your BigY 500 test: http://www.ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=8349.
2. Be very careful about using any of the date estimates from YFull or Iain McDonald on The Big Tree. IMO, their methodology is based on flawed assumptions that can never be verified. Looking at the DCG Cladogram, R1b-BY165369 and R1b-FT396104 did split quite a long time ago. After working with the O’Conor Don's BigY 700 test results, a heuristic of 30 year generations and Y chromosome mutations occurring every other generation, or every 60 years, seems to work reasonably well. But it is not set in stone by any means. Remember, we are NOT looking at all mutations yet since we are sequencing only about 50% of the Y chromosome currently.
   
   The quick and dirty Iain McDonald method is:
   for R1b-FT396104, 19 + 2 SNPs = 21 SNPs
   for R1b-BY165369, 6 + 7 SNPs = 13 SNPs
   21 + 13 => 34 / 2 = 17 SNPs average
   17 * 82 years per SNP => 1970 AD - 1394 years = 576 AD.
   
   Using my heuristic, for R1b-FT396104, 19 + 2 mutations * 60 years per mutation => 1970 AD - 1260 years = 710 AD.
   For R1b-BY165369, 6 + 7 mutations * 60 years per mutation => 1970 AD - 780 AD = 1190 AD.
   
   So as you can see, any dating estimates are too wide ranging to have any significant meaning. Since we are NOT looking at the entire Y chromosome yet, I am confident we are missing mutations that would bring the number of mutations in every branch to a relatively similar number, which would allow much better age estimation in terms of generations.
3. See above. But that said, we are finding uniting umbrella mutations more and more. And again, when we have telomere-to-telomere gapless Y chromosome sequencing tests available, we will see some reorganization of the Y-Haplotree.
4. The R1b-BY129440+ Kenny men are in the R1b-A10642 mystery direct subclade of R1b-DF105. It is pretty much guaranteed that they are NOT R1b-A259+, so they cannot be closely related to those of you in R1b-FGC5939. Keep in mind, the genealogies and annals are fairly rock solid on the date of ~500 AD for the death of Dau Tengae Umae, and R1b-FGC5939 MUST have occurred around the same time or after him. R1b-DF105 probably occurred ~300 AD or so, based on the genealogies and annals correlated with the Y-Haplotree.
   
   Remember, cland names and surnames derived from one man's given name. There is no uniqueness to them because of that. In modern day terms, imagine how many completely unrelated families there would be in the USA from men named Tom, Dick, and Harry? If each man's descendants decided to use them as their cland name or surname progenitor, there would be hundreds of different Tomson, Dickson, and Harrison families spread across location and time of origin. The same is true of Cináed, which was a popular given name in the early time frame.
   
   Working in isolation on a single surname is too limiting. That is why I expanded to the Dál Cuinn as a whole. Looking at the genetic relationships among the different surnames and correlating that to the genealogies and annals is imperative to get a true picture of our lineages and heritage.

Mike Rowley, who is also R1b-FGC5939+, has been working through his genealogy to get age estimates, as seen in this thread. We think Mike Rowley descends from the Cruffon Ó Rothláin mentioned in Ó Dubagáin's topographical poem. We also think the R1b-FTA43254+ Ó Flannacáin are the Cruffon family mentioned in the annals.

As noted previously, the whole southern/eastern Co. Galway seems to have been a melting pot, genetically. Trying to untangle the real genealogies based on Y-DNA is proving to be quite a challenge.