Population Genomics of the Viking World

[Webmaster]

Thanks, AI.

I don't see any traces of VK545 yet, but time will tell.

[Brian_O'Leary]

Hi all. Very interesting on the VK545 remains in Dublin testing for M222.

I wonder, however, whether the original archaeological interpretation of VK545 as Viking is accurate. Information on the excavation and results of investigation of him can be found here: https://excavations.ie/report/2002/Dublin/0007893/

It strike me that the median results from the Carbon 14 testing lies in the mid-700s. So, in terms of probability, that he was buried in Viking Dublin (i.e. 830s onwards) is less likely than more likely (though not impossible by any stretch of the imagination).

The remains were found in close proximity to the church of Saint Michael le Pole, which retained its round-tower into the late 1700s and is supposed to have started life as the church of Saint Mac Tháil rather than Michael, would seem to have been part of the pre-Viking fabric of Dublin.

Either way, very significant that an M222 individual would be found within what was - to the best of our historical knowledge - under the rule of the Laigin in the 8th and early 9th centuries. Though of course, the Southern Uí Néill lands of Brega were only 4km north of the site at the River Tolka.

[Webmaster]

Brian,

Thanks for the info! And again, welcome to the forum.

The VK545 sample was DF104+, which fits with the Y-DNA/surname data we have seen so far that gives strong indication the R1b-DF104 clade contains all the Dál Cuinn lineages, except those that were either mistakenly attached or deliberately inserted for whatever reasons, like the Cland Colla. By the 700s AD, the Y-DNA should have differentiated below R1b-DF104 to R1b-DF105 and downstream. If VK545 was Uí Néill as you raised the possibility due to locations, then VK545 should also be R1b-DF105+ and R1b-ZZ87+ and then downstream of that. IDK if they have the ability to test the remains to that level of detail or not. If VK545 is definitely R1b-DF105-, that would indicate his line split off before the rise of the Connachta, who all seem to be R1b-DF105+ from what we are seeing.

https://dcg.genealogy.network/cladogram.xhtml

[Brian_O'Leary]

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes, I wouldn't even say that he was necessarily Dál Cuinn/DF105+, but I think the nearby Southern Uí Néill lands represents one possible vector for how he came to be in Dublin. Other vectors might have been someone coming from further afield by maritime routes (although I wouldn't be knowledgeable enough on pre-Viking Dublin to know to what extent it was a trading centre), or there may even have been a pre-Dál Cuinn M222 offshoot population among the Laigin whose DNA footprint has not survived through to today in any significant way (that's pure hypothetical speculation rather than an acutal suggestion!). And of course he may well have been assimilated into Viking culture as the paper suggests. Many possibilities!

[Webmaster]

Brian,

You are most welcome.

IDK if you are familiar with the Laud 610 text, but here are a couple of links:

Gaelic: https://celt.ucc.ie/published/G105005/text001.html#p313
English: https://lists.rootsweb.com/hyperkitty/list/dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com/thread/34673813/

The interesting thing is THIS account says the ancestor of Conn Cétchathach was a SECOND Milesius; therefore, NOT of the Éremón line. It is my speculation that this is the correct history and THIS is how R1b-M222, probably through its R1b-DF106 subclade, was introduced into Ireland. A lot of events do seem to align to support this.

There is the Doon Of Drumsna, which appears to be somewhat unique in construction in Ireland. However, this type of fortification does resemble those found on the Continent and appears to be associated with the La Tène culture, which flourished in the 2nd and 1st centuries BC. This is consistent with the dating for the Doon Of Drumsna. The Doon has also been traditionally associated with Queen Medb, who according to the genealogies and annals also flourished in this timeframe. FYI, the Doon also seems like the best location for the Duma Graid in the The Tripartite Life Of Saint Patrick.

Then there are the classic tales and stories which I think may be garbled and embellished remnants of old histories. In particular, the meeting of the Tuatha Dé and the Fir Bolg seems somewhat similar, although grossly distorted and embellished, to the account in Laud 610. What stands out in my mind from that story is:

It was on the first day of Beltaine, that is called now May Day, the Tuatha Dé Danaan came, and it was to the north-west of Connacht they landed.
. . .
Now as to the Men of Dea [Tuatha Dé Danaan], when Bres went back to them, and showed them the heavy spear, and told them of the strong, fierce man he had got it from, and how sturdy he was and well armed, they thought it likely there would soon be a battle. And they went back from where they were to a better place, farther west in Connacht, and there they settled themselves, and made walls and ditches on the plain of Magh Nia, where they had the great mountain, Belgata, in their rear.
. . .
And on the fourth day the Men of Dea got the upper hand, and the Firbolgs were driven back. And a great thirst came on Eochaid, their king, in the battle, and he went off the field looking for a drink, and three fifties of his men protecting him; but three fifties of the Tuatha Dé Danaan followed after them till they came to the strand that is called Traigh Eothaile, and they had a fierce fight there, and at the last King Eochaid fell, and they buried him there, and they raised a great heap of stones over his grave.
[ http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/gafm03.htm ]
[ http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/1maghtured.html ]
[ Celtic Myth And Legend - Charles Squire, 1910. ]

And I found a reference that said Mag Nia was an old label for Co. Leitrim, although I can't find the reference again. So could the walls and ditches on Mag Nia be a twisted memory of the Doon Of Drumsna, built by invaders from a La Tène force? Regardless, there is a lot that is very intriguing about the true origin of the Dál Cuinn. Hopefully time will tell with more Y-DNA data.

[Brian_O'Leary]

Very interesting indeed, thanks for sharing that with me. I had been unaware of that source. I'll read up these bits, it's a fascinating question

[Webmaster]

Brian,

I should also add this interesting fact. The Milesian origin story says they came from Spain - probably from around A Coruña, Galicia. This is also the region where R1b-DF27 has been found in the Gaelic population of Spain. This is a very early split from what became R1b-M222. So if the Milesian story had any truth behind it, we should have most likely seen R1b-DF27 in the population. But the Dál Cuinn are definitely R1b-M222+ and R1b-DF27-.

However, the Ó Néill Ruad and the Cland Áeda Buide, supposedly of the Uí Néill, Cenél nEógain do appear to be showing up as R1b-DF27+. The first thing is obviously there was some kind of error in the genealogies, whether deliberate or unintentional, for these 2 clanda, and they are NOT Uí Néill at all. Secondly, it does raise interesting questions as to who they actually are; particularly since they are R1b-DF27+. Does this imply there is some factual basis for the Milesian origin story, or was R1b-DF27 introduced under completely different circumstances. Again, it leads to some very interesting speculation which hopefully will be resolved one day with more data.