Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

Chris,

Amazing research, as always.

The Delbna and the Sogáin are both very elusive to me. The Delbna supposedly broke into 8 different groups and the most believable origin story is they descended from Cas, the progenitor of the Dál gCais. IDK if anyone has looked into the Y-DNA to verify any connection among the Delbna; particularly if they are part of the R1b-FGC5659 clade that is associated with the Dál gCais.

However, I CAN say that the Sogáin genealogy has been badly broken by the Y-DNA. The leading Sogáin family of Connacht is the Ó Mainnín/Mannion. But they are strongly represented in the R1b-FGC5939 clade, which is VERY Uí Briúin. I think later historians have fallen victim to the old Irish practice of naming a territory after the known original settlers/proprietors of the territory and referring to it by that name thereafter, regardless of who the later settlers/proprietors were. And because the territorial name stuck, the later settlers/proprietors were misassociated with the earliest settlers/proprietors that the territory was named after.

So the medieval Delbna and Sogáin around Delvin could actually be Uí Briúin Bréifne, genetically. I think there is a lot of Irish history that has been conflated and confused in this fashion. There is a lot of work ahead to untangle it all. Thankfully, the larger part seems to be straightforward and serves as a sanity check on the rest.

Thanks David! I've been trying to pick apart just what peoples were in the area pre-Norman invasion and I've never come across the Sogain at all, that is very interesting that there was another branch of Connacht influence there. Supposedly "Delbhna Mor" were chiefs in Delvin and were Ui Finnolans, and "Delbhna Beag" were chiefs in Fore, and had the surname that anglicized to Mulholland. When DeLacy established a Benedictine Priory at Fore, the charter stated "and the tithes of Tir Began (Tir Beccon) and Tir Fiachrach in my domain and the mill in Fore called St. Feighin's". Ive been wondering just what places these people occupied as well. The Breifne excerpts of the annals c1150-1170 have quite a lot of back and forth/raiding in this area ( http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~ruairc/g ... annals.htm ).

I've also been trying to dig up any mentions of the given name CELLÁN among people that may have inhabited southern Breifne at any point in time.
“Cellan, son of Sechnusach, the learned, died.” (AU 706; there were kings of the name Sechnusach in both Ui Maine and Brega c700)
“Death of Cellan, abbot of Cluain Ferta Brénainn” (AU, 753; Clonfert Galway?)
“Death of Comarbach son of Cellán, abbot of Cell Mór Einir” (AU 750 Kilmore Armagh?)

However it does seem like this was an established diminutive of Ceallach.

I would definitely like to take part in the email discussion you sent to me about the Ui Briuin althought I'm not sure how much I can contribute, but I'll definitely see if I can! chris****@****.com

Chris,

I forwarded you copies of the relevant email exchanges.

The Uí Fiachroí in that region are a big mess. The Beccon Uí Fiachroí are supposed to be descended from Amalgaid son of Feradach Daithe son of Fiachróe Foltsnáthach son of Eóchád Muigmedón - or not.

The body of Dathi was carried to Erin, and interred in Releg na Riogh the cemetery of the kings, at Cruachan, where the kings of the race of Heremon were, for the most part, interred; and Amhalgaidh, the son of Dathi, died in Deisi Breagh of the venom of the deep wounds which he received in the above mentioned battles, and his tribe and progeny are in Bregia, or Breaghmhagh, i. e. the Cineal Becon.
[ Hy-Fiachrach, p. 25 ]

OR, the Uí Amalgada genealogy:

From Amhalgaidh, the fourth son of Fiachra, are sprung the Hy-Amhalgaidh on the Muaidh, and the Hy-Becon. This Amhalgaidh had a large family, namely, Fedhlim; Eochaidh of the two plains, i. e. of the plain of Muirisc, daughter of Liogan, and of the plain of Muidh, or Muaidh; Eunda; Conall; Aongus; Eoghan; Cormac; and Corrdubh. These were the eight sons of Tresi, the daughter of Natfraoch, and sister of Aongus, son of Nadfraoch, king of Munster.
[ Hy-Fiachrach, p. 5 ]

OR, the alternate Uí Amalgada genealogy:

Earca, daughter of Eochaidh, King of Leinster, another wife of Amhalgaidh, had seven sons; namely, Fergus; Cormac Ceannfoda; Colom; Seudna; Eochaidh; Aoldobhar; and Emeach, from whom are sprung the family of O’h-Emeachain.
[ Hy-Fiachrach, pp. 9 ]

The sons of Muirenn (daughter of Dubhthach, King of Hy-Many), another wife of Amhalgaidh, were the following, viz., Cairbre, from whom sprung St. Tighearnan, of Oireadh Locha Con; Aongus Fionn Mac Amhalgaidh, from whom are the families of O’Gaibhtheachain, O’Flainn and O’Maoilfhiona, chiefs of Calraighe Muighe h-Eleag; Duibhindracht Mac Amhalgaidh, from whom are the Muintir Fothaigh, Muintir Culachan, and Muintir Duinncuan; Cucoingelt Mac Amhalgaidh, from whom are the Muintir Tomaltaigh; and Conchobhar Mac Amhalgaidh, from whom are the Muintir Ubain, with their correlatives.

The descendants of Cormac Ceannfada, i. e. of the long head, Colom, Seudna, and Aoldobhar, are not illustrious.

From Fiachra, the son of Amhalgaidh (But who IS his mother?), are descended the Hy-Becon of Meath, thus:

Becon,
son of Coman,
son of Seanach,
son of Aodh,
son of Fiachra,
son of Amhalgaidh, King of Connaught,
son of Fiachra,
son of Eochaidh Muighmheadhoin. King of Ireland.
[ Hy-Fiachrach, pp. 11-13 ]

Take your pick.

I can't get a handle on the Uí Fiachroí Arda Sratha either. So there is a lot of murkiness in these early genealogies.

This is all very fascinating and really brings the broken genealogy issue to light! I've also come to the conclusion that CELLÁN was probably not a name in itself and had to have been a linguistic contraction of CELLACHÁN, specifically in relation to the Connacht dialect due to the very sparse amounts of Cellan men I found in the annals and their respective locations, and also the fact that Breifne as well as much of medieval Westmeath that had more gaelic influence than Norman, likely spoke this dialect. I also took a dive into the Irish language starting this past September beginning with Rosetta Stone. Once I finished that, I started "Colloquial Irish I" which is in the Connacht dialect, so a learner can take a trip to the gaeltacht districts and be much more versed in conversation. I noticed right off the bat the amount of contractions where "h" as well as a lot of hard consonants were totally skipped. i.e. "Ca bhfuil to fanacht?" (where are you staying?) in Connacht is "C'all tu fan'at?"

Now that I can make this association with this surname, a lot of the earlier records I attributed to MacGiollaEain come into question. For instance in the 1641 Depositions:

William mc Kealane of Killarow, rebel in Dromgoane, Cavan, October 1641
Maa mcCallane of Ralaghane, rebel in Dromgoane, Cavan, armed robbery, 1641
Edmond Mc Keilane, butcher, rebel in the parish of Drumgoan, Cavan
Owen mc Callane, yeoman, of the same.
Ever mc Callane, rebel in Carrickmacross, Monaghan, robbery, arson, 1641

This all seems to be Mac CELLÁN knowing what I've researched the past few years and Drumgoon is in the barony of Clankee, southeast of Cootehill.

This morning I came across one of the early kings of Breifne that was transcribed "SELLACHAN" which is undoubtedly CELLACHÁN. He was the great-grandfather of Ruairc, of which the Ui Ruairc name derives; and the Book of Leinster references him as King of Breifne. He was also the son of Cernach(an), and there are Kernahans within A260 but as of now still not Ceallachains within A260. What piqued my interest was that he was probably alive in the early 9th century at the time that the Teallach Eachdhach and Teallach Dunchadha were occupying their modern-day baronies, before which time many of these people probably occupied the same places. I'm wondering if he was the King responsible for this expansion and an older namesake of a territory or tribe that was lost to time. A5902 during his lifetime would have existed for approximately 8 generations and there could be a likelihood of Tighernan mac Sellachan having A5902+ half-siblings if not a later generation. It was Sellachan's brother Maelmhordha, that Muintir Maelmhordha took it's name.

...
(7) Fergna
(8) Aedh Find
(9) Scanlan
(10) Crimhthann
(11) Fedlim *
(12) Blaithmac *
(13) Baithin
(14) Donchadh
(15) Dubh Dothra (obit. 743)
(16) Cernach (or Cernachan)
(17) Sellachan
(18) Tigernán (obit. betw. Bet. 888 - 892)
(19) Ruarc mac Tighernáin (from whom the surname O'Rourke derives)
(20) Art * mac Ruairc
(21) O Ruairc, Sean Ferghal, King of Connacht: 956-964/7 (a chart of the Ó Ruairc kings)
(22) O Ruairc, Aedh - died abt 1015
(23) O Ruairc, Art Oirdnide (Uallach), King of Connacht: c.1030-1046
(24) O Ruairc, Niall - died abt 1047
(25) O Ruairc, Ualgharg - died abt 1085

The bulk of A5902 clans and surnames seem to have origins within a specific area... Which begins to beg the question: Are the Callaghan/Keleghan variants and McKellain/McClean variants all one surname from a broken genealogy? or possibly attempt at people occupying a certain place naming Ceallachain in their oral genealogy whether it was actually conflated or passed down to them as truth?
Although the 9th century may be quite a stretch to name a patronymic when surnames were developing much later, and we also can't deny the fact that Ceallachain was noted to be a popular given-name in the 12th/13th centuries, could there have been a small A5902+ tuaith of MUINTIR CEALLACHÁN within one of the Breifne territories? It may be interesting to note that Muintir Maolmordha (descendants of Seallachan's brother) were first noted having sway over an area around Lough Glamor that makes up a lot of the modern day barony of Castlerahan (while they were still a vassal of the Ui Ruairc).

Somewhat unconnected but also interesting, the Muintir Maelmordha had a chief named Gofraidh Ui Raghallaigh who staged an unsuccessful rebellion in 1154, and he was banished. Is this the beginning of the MacGofraigh (MacGorry/Gorry) surname which seems to be most numerous between Oldcastle and Killallon Co. Meath? Also in this area but closer to Lough Sheelin is "Friary" (Mac an Phriora) what I believe was the original name of Fraher. Mac anPhrior(a) is a nickname/surname among a sept of the Clanmahon O'Reillys who controlled the Oldcastle Co. Meath area after the gaelic resurgence.

Chris,

Good stuff. Re "Sellachán", I think that is a copy error at some early point in time for Selbachán. It is my understanding that in Gaelic as far back as it goes, "C" has always been hard, never soft like "S". So there is little likelihood that Sellachán" is a corruption of Cellachán. "C" is only softened to "G", AFAIK. So yes, Selbachán was the progenitor of the Uí Ruairc, etc. while his brother Máel Mórda was the progenitor of the Uí Rogellaig, etc.

Dr. Paul MacCotter's genealogical table for the Áed Find descendants does have an Uí Cernacháin sept descended from Selbachán.

Aha! that makes much more sense now. In my copy of the Book of Magauran it was written "Seallachain" so it threw me through a bit of a loop wondering about a misconscription.

Also as per your earlier reply that some of the Delbhna could genetically be Ui Briuin: I found that the Ui Briuin had been in/around Fore barony, Co. Westmeath (Delbhna Beag) as early as 1012 as far as raiding goes.

From AFM (very rough translation)

1012.7
A great plunder was made by Ualgharg Ua Ciarrdhai, lord of Coirpre, and by the son of Niall Ua Ruairc, and by the men of Teathbha and the Gaileangaibh, and he drew from them good men of the people of the house of Mael Seachlainn after drinking it at that time(?). mescca co t-tardsat battle them through diumas.(?) Torchair and don Donnchadh, son of Maelseachlainn, and Dubh Taichligh Ua Mael Callann, lord of Dealbhna Bice, Donnchadh, son of Donnchadh Finn, royal heir of Temhrach, Cernachán, son of Flaind, lord of Luighne, Senan Ua Leocan, lord of Gaileng, and many others with him. Maelseachlainn, after his death, was killed, and Ualgarc Ua Ciarrdha, lord of Coirpre, and many other nobles were slain.

The "Ua Maelcallan" were chiefs of Dealbhna Beag, I believe the given name here is Dubhaltach. Woulfe says that Ui Maelcallen was MAOLCHALLEN or MAELCHALLAN which anglicized to Mulholland;but they must have all died out or been displaced as there are none in the area. He says the name means "Devotee of the Calends", i.e. "Caileann" in Irish. MacLysaght says this is tenuous though. I also wondered why there would be a devotee of a time/day of the roman calendar. Maybe there was some local historical figure in this area with a similar sounding name (Caileann, Ceallain, Cealla(ch)ain, etc ?) that spawned several names. O'Clery writes the name O'Maolcolain which is interesting to me.

12 of these towlands are in former Delbhna Beag:

Chris,

I really appreciate your responses and the excitement they contain. I review them regularly hoping to see a split in my negative A5902 and your positive A5902 matches to gain a better grasp of the timing of our most distant ancestors. Your posts help keep the spark alive!

-Mark

Mark,

The traditional genealogies put the split between R1b-BY3338 and R1b-A5902 sometime after Fergnóe son of Fergus. Fergnóe lived ~500 AD, and he is credited with 4 sons:

1. Áed Find - R1b-BY3338
2. Brénaind - R1b-A5902
3. Dícuill - ? (there are mystery clades under R1b-A260 that could fit)
4. Feradach - ? (ditto - there are mystery clades under R1b-A260 that could fit)

So to answer your question, the split between R1b-BY3338 and R1b-A5902 almost certainly occurred before ~550 AD. Here is a link to my hypothesizing about how the Y-DNA best correlates with the traditional genealogies. To be clear, it is pure speculation. The hard date is that Dau Tengae Umae, the brother of Fergnóe, was slain in 500 AD (by his son-in-law at the instigation of his own daughter). Áed Find, Brénaind, etc. were his nephews, so that is where I get the 550 AD date from, since those mutations almost certainly occurred in them or their sons.

Thanks Mark! this has been really tricky with this surname mostly because of the area it was in. There were gallowglass MacLeans, MacCeallachains, O'Cathalains, O'Killians, etc, all of which could anglicize to (Mac) Kellane/Killane/Clane, etc.
Now I see the O'Maolchallains here in the exact same area a long time ago and I wonder if even that could mutate into McChallain/McCallain (O'Maolseachlainn turned into McLoughlin; and the O'Maolchlaoins in Mayo turned into Mulcleen/Mulclean and there were McCleans in the same parishes as Mulclean, coincidence? I'm about 99% positive its Ceallain, a contraction of Ceallachain, but I'd kill for a DNA match circa 1500

Chris,

Your time frame analysis regarding BY3338 is what I have been seeing and I believe it will fine tune over time. On the flip side with O'Reilly being R-A883 and I am negative for R-A883 has me watching those timelines as well. Watching both A883 and A5902 will help me get closer to breaking our brick wall when more matches come up. I feel it is so close yet out of reach for now.

Again, your analysis of A5902 along with your drive is refreshing and hopeful for all of us. Do keep up the good work.

-Mark