Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

Chris,

Duma Selce was not Rathcroghan, nor do I believe it was in Mag Seóla. I am working on identifying it, but it has been a mystery for centuries, so who knows? FYI, St. Patrick's visit to Rathcroghan involved a meeting with 2 daughters of Láegaire macc Néill, not the "sons" of Brión.

Thereafter Patrick went at sunrise to the well, namely, Cliabach on the sides of Cruachan. The clerics sat down by the well. Two daughters of Loegaire son of Niall went early to the well to wash their hands, as was a custom of theirs, namely, Ethne the Fair, and Fedelm the Ruddy. The maidens found beside the well the assembly of the clerics in white garments, with their books before them. And they wondered at the shape of the clerics, and thought that they were men of the elves or apparitions. They asked tidings of Patrick: “Whence are ye, and whence have ye come? Are ye of the elves or of the gods?” And Patrick said to them: “It were better for you to believe in God than to inquire about our race.” ...

And yes, sadly the number of people testing has declined significantly.

Wow thanks for clearing that up, David. A Galway "A5902 birthplace" seems to jive with some things. I've been looking at the O'Duffy association or lackthereof with "Breifne". It seems their more documented associations as ecclesiastics are with Cong Abbey on the Mayo/Galway (right near Lough Corrib) border since the 12th century, and also the townland of Lisofnuffy, near Strokestown Co. Roscommon, which was O'Connor/Ui Briuin Ai territory, aside from Ballyduffy in Killoe, Co. Longford which really was only within the overkingdom of Breifne c. 1100-1171. This could also lend some credence to Fraher being O'Fearchair which were coincidentally also numerous in around Cong abbey, Ballinrobe

In other odd news, Richard Maclean's terminal SNP being FGC55184 (c. 800 AD) remains his split with John McClean, which unless there's some errors, seems to indicate they both acquired the surname independently.

Chris,

The Three Tuaths Ó Dubthaig are supposed to be connected to the Cenél Dubthaig/Dobtha/Dofa/Doohyhanly. Dubthach was supposed to be the third brother of Óno and Ith whom St. Patrick encounter on his visit to Corcu Achlainn. But no mention is ever made of Dubthach. The Hanley family is the chieftain line of the Cenél Dubthaig. Many genealogies say they descend from Ercc Derg, son of Brión. But this is an egregious conflation error. The Tripartite Life makes it very clear that Óno and Ith, Dubthach's putative brothers, descend from someone else.

Óno, son of Óengus, son of Erc the Red [Ercc Derg], son of Brón, from whom descend the Hui-Ónach, offered his dwelling to
Patrick...

As far as I am aware, The Tripartite Life always uses the variant form of Brian to refer to Brión. Brón is a completely different name and is the name of one of St. Patrick's bishops; so there was a clear understanding of the difference between the 2 names in The Tripartite Life.

Also, H. T. Knox says in his The History Of The County Of Mayo:

The Three Tuaths, Hy Briuin na Sinna, Corcachland, and Cinel Dobhtha, claimed descent from Erc Derg, son of Brian. But the Book of Armagh and the Tripartite Life make it clear that they came from Erc, son of Brón, of the Corca Chonluain. Descendants of the Erc from whom they came seem to be the Maicne Erc, sons of Heric, who were in Moylurg in St. Patrick's time. These appear to be the Hy Bróin, who were distinguished from Hy Briúin by Tírechán, who calls them [Filii] Briúin and Filii Bróin. Though they do not descend from Brian, it is not unlikely that the Corca Chonluain had a common ancestor with the Conmaicne, and so being of the royal race, were not under tribute, being included in the direct dominions of the King of Silmurray, as the Calry are omitted because immediately under the Hy Fiachrach kings, as I suppose. Beyond this we know not who were in possession of the rest of Magh Aí and of the Three Tuaths.

And BTW, I have no idea who the Corcu Conluain are. As far as I can find, Knox is the only one who references them.

Some of Knox's presumptions are incorrect, but he is correct about the two different progenitors, so that the Cenél Dubthaig probably should not be Dál Cuinn, ASSUMING they have the same progenitor as Óno and Ith; which is not certain at all. It would be funny if the Cenél Dubthaig turned out to be an early branch of the Uí Briúin Bréifne.

Careful reading of The Tripartite Life will also show beyond doubt that there were TWO different families with an Ercc as the progenitor: one is the Corcu Achlainn family of Óno and Ith (the race of Macc Erce); and the other is a branch of the Uí Ailella that St. Patrick encountered in Mag Luirg near Boyle (the Sons of Erc). Bishop Maine of the Uí Ailella calls the latter family his brethren. And it seems clear that at that time the territory of the Uí Ailella extended from Elphin to the Barony of Tirerrill.

Chris,

In other odd news, Richard Maclean's terminal SNP being FGC55184 (c. 800 AD) remains his split with John McClean, which unless there's some errors, seems to indicate they both acquired the surname independently.

Two McClean gentlemen moved to the new R1b-FT344231 subclade. IDK if these are the 2 you mentioned or not.

That would be them! I just got the update, looks as if there's 10 SNPs between them and FT344231 which probably puts it circa 12th/13th centuries. Still much earlier than I had figured, may an entire kindred of distantly related people were absorbed into these mercenaries at separate times, unless of course this is proof of Maclean Galloglass and not the later Redshanks. Very interesting.

Thanks again for all this info David. It actually clears up "Fraher" very well. I had figured these people to be too far west this whole time. I wonder if Fearchair>Fearaigh just like Fearadhach>Fearaigh. It would certainly explain Gorry.



Although Kilmaine b. was Comaicne Cuile, they had become an underkingdom of Ui Briuin in the second half of the 8th century.

766: The battle of Sruthair between the Uí Briúin and the Conmaicne in which very many of the Conmaicne fell, and Aed Dub son of Taichlech fell. Dub Innrecht, son of Cathal, was victor (Shrule, Co. Mayo; border of Conmaicne Cuile & Ui Briuin)

The TMRCA of myself & Fraher is 1044ad, which may hint that FT130287 is certainly a "holdover", never making the Ui Briuin Breifne migration. The ancient highway of Sli Mor (the Esker Riada) leads into Westmeath.

Chris,

I am no longer surprised at ANY of the Anglicization we are seeing of Gaelic surnames. We just found that some Ó Dubagáin families Anglicized their surname to DOUGLAS, instead of the more usual Duggan.

Wow It definitely seems anything is possible, which makes this even more difficult

The annals do reveal a Fearchair in the region at the time that A5902 was in Maigh Seola,but gives no association

AFM 790 Tibraide, son of Fearchair, Abbot of Cluain Fearta Brenainn (Clonfert, Go. Galway near Offaly)

However there is evidence of some of Ui Briuin being ecclesiastics further east in Offaly at the time
AFM 766 Forbasach Ua Cearnaigh, Abbot of Cluain Mic Nois, died; he was of the Ui Briuin.
AFM 794 Anaile, Abbot of Cluain Mic Nois, who was of the Ui Briuin, died.
AFM 811 Suibhne, son of Cuanach, Abbot of Cluain Mic Nois, one of the Ui Briuin Seola

I also forgot to add before that as Gorry has a Gurry and a Curry match (Curry is a dead kit apparently).
But Curry roughly covers the same area, with some scattered Gorry/Gurry

But who these people are I have no clue. Ó Comhraidhe but potentially also Mac Mhuireadhaigh

The Maigh Seola information has finally put the pieces together for me, and all this time I was concentrating too far east thinking these surname hits were not related. I've done a lot of reading wherever I could and this seems to indicate that FT130287 was a "holdover" and did not make the Breifne migration.

The Ui Briuin of Maigh Seola (Clare b., Galway) conquered the Conmacne Cuile Toladh (Kilmaine b., Mayo) in 766 at the battle of Shrule. The Ui Briuin were their overlords until 1118. The growing power of the Ui Conchobhar on their eastern boundary was as close as Tuam. The Ui Conchobhar invaded Conmaicne Cuile and pushed out the leading sept of Ui Briuin (the Ui Flabheartaigh, aka Muintir Murchada). I think it might be evident that FT130287 was a lesser-family, maybe only temporarily "chiefly" centuries earlier, being planted with the Conmaicne, but had long been integrated with them.

After the Norman invasion, the Burkes took the whole area and split into Mac William & Clanricard approx 1330 after they had completely gaelicized. The Mac William Burkes, prior to the late 15th c., employed seven septs of Clann Domhnaill's galloglass. One of which, the sept of Aedh Buidhe Mac Domhnaill was given extensive lands in Kilmaine, and had become a lordship unto themselves, and built seven tower houses. Clann Domhnaill, until the collapse of the lordship of the isles, contained contingents of Mac Giolla Eain. The O'Fearchair would likely have been tenants of the MacDonnells of Aghalahard where there were certainly Mac Giolla Eains present.


Several months ago I found a match to Gorry, by the name of Gurry. "McGurry" was present in low numbers around Tuam & Galway, seemingly a variant of a different surname. Near Shrule on the border of Conmaicne Cuile was "Curry" which I take to be Mac Mhuireadhaigh, which probably also had a Mag-prefix. Muireadhaigh was a popular Ui Briuin name, of which there were several kings of Connacht in the time frame of FT130287's development, who were "mac _______ mac Muireadhaigh".

Although the next matches are not concrete because they've yet to respond to my emails, I've got several Henleys (Hennelly; Ui h-Iongaile, or as Woulfe thinks it: Ui Fhionngoula) as well as several Garveys (Mac Garbheith), both of these families were numerous in the same parish as the Ui Fearchair.

On a side note: I think the new Muintir Echach member of Joyce, who came from West Galway is another indicator of A5902+ holdovers of another clade (FGC34296)


I now believe the MacLeans probably also served Clanricarde and O'Kelly. The townland of Toormacleane lies on the Sligh Mor, along which there are breadcrumbs of McClean records from Ballinasloe to my MDKA in Clara, Co. Offaly

Chris,

Amazing as always. That is quite interesting. Thanks!

One surname on that map really caught my eye: Ó Buadacháin. I have only seen it referenced in one time frame before.

1048 AD

AT1048.13	Then came the crown prince of Uí Maine, and Ó Maolruanaidh and Ó Flannacán and the cleric Ó Taidhg and Mac Buadacháin, crown prince of Delbna, and he routed them and killed them all.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p389
AFM1048.17	A predatory excursion was made by the royal heirs or chieftains of Ui-Maine into Dealbhna where the royal chieftains were all slain, namely, Ua Maelruanaidh, Ua Flannagain, the Cleireach Ua Taidhg, and Mac Buadhachain, royal heir of Dealbhna.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005B.html#p855

We can, of course, ignore the Ó/Mac difference. These entries are almost certainly referring to the Delbna Nuadat, or rather the then current inhabitants of the old Delbna Nuadat territory, which was basically the Barony of Athlone originally. I suspect the "Ó Maolruanaidh" being referred to was the chieftain of the Cland Maíl Rúamaig, who later became the Mac Dermotts of Moylurg, etc. I am not sure which Ó Flannacáin family is being referenced; nor am I sure which Uí Taidc family is meant. There are at least a couple of possibilities for both of these latter two families.

Another surname that caught my eye was Ó Dublaích. Rev. Woulfe says:

Ó Dubhlaoich—I—O Dowlee, O Dowley, O Dooly, Dowley, Dooley, Dooly; 'descendant of Dubhlaoch' (black hero). There are three distinct families of this name, viz.: ... (3) Ó Dubhlaoich of Siol Anmchadha who are of the same stock as the O’Maddens and were originally located in the south-east of the present Co. Galway.

However, the O’Maddens are most closely related to the Dál Cais, who are most decidedly not Dál Cuinn. And we have one gentleman who is certain he is a Dooley SCE and he is R1b-FGC5939+, which clade is as close as we can get to being 100% certain are the descendants of Eóchád Tírmchárnae, the Uí Briúin Aí. But we have been seeing putative Uí Maini families falling under the R1b-FGC5939 clade, as well as other Dál Cuinn clades. So Eóchád Tírmchárnae was the progenitor of more than just the Uí Briúin Aí. There appears to have been a lot of misunderstanding, confusion, and conflation going on in the records about the families of Connacht.