Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

In Nollaig Ó Muraíle translation of MacFirbis’s Great Book of Genealogies, there is a section of proses within the Ui Briuin section, discussing alliances with the Ui Maine:
Diarmait Finn (founder of the Ui Diarmada of Siol Muireadhaig) (d.833) needs, Cathal s. Oilill, king of Ui Mhaine (d.846), ‘to bring him [with him] to battle against the men of Bréifne.' The deal requires the present abbot of Ciaran, Ailghile, to be replaced by a relative of Cathal.

However, in a scuffle to remove Ailghile from the abbot's seat: "Cathal seized the hand of Ailghile and Ailghile cursed that Cathal and took away the kingship of Ui Mhaine from his family, and thus it came to pass".
This seems similar to hagiographical works were a failure of a dynastic family, at the time of writing the hagiography, is explained as a results of a curse by the saint that is hagiography is written about.

Therefore, given that Cathal mac Aiella is a member of new family of Clann Ionnrachtaigh of the Ui Mhaine. Does this mean Ailghile has also curse Cathal’s brothers’ lines? They give rise to the (I believe) the O Duibhgean and certainly the O’Ceallaigh lines.
For after a poem, the prose continues with “... Tadhg s. Muircheartach, i.e. f. Cu Ceanainn, fell in the battle of Céis Chorainn along with Cathal s. Tadhg, i.e. king of Connacht; in the same battle were slain Géibheannach s. Aodh, king of Ui Mhaine, and Urchadh (or Murchadh) s. Flann s. (Gleidhneachan, chieftain of Clann Mhurchadha. ...".

As Géibheannach s. Aodh, king of Ui Maine, is thought to be the grandson of Aed m. Ceallaigh m. Finnachta m. Oililla m. Innrachtaig. And if this is true, then MacFirbis’s prose would then have become inconsistent, as he as already stated that Ailghile took away the kingship of Ui Mhaine from Cathal’s (Finnachta’s brother) family.

yDNA also suggests Géibheannach s. Aodh was not of the Clann Ionnrachtaigh line. For Géibheannach s. Aedh, grandson of Aed m. Ceallaigh m. Finnachta m. Oililla m. Innrachtaig, is said to have founded the O'Keaveney. And the Keaveney from Galway are so far I-FGC14450 and hence not matching either the BY198+ Dunn (O Duibhgean of Clann Ionnrachtaigh of the Ui Mhaine), nor the non-BY198 O’Kelly of Ui Maine.

MacFirbis also tells “The seed of Cathal are Meic Con Ghaola s. Muireadhach and Meic Mheic Cathail.”
Hence Meic Mheic Cathail who appear in Nosa Ui Mhaine as on of the leading families, and given their closer relationship to the BY198+ Dunn (O Duibhgean of Clann Ionnrachtaigh of the Ui Mhaine), should if ever tested be BY198+. (The A260+ Cahill (361718), likely represents the O Cathaill of Siol Muireadhaig, that are Orrigh in Clann Cremthainn of Ui Maine lands.)

Nosa Ui Mhaine:
Is iad so lucht cóimíicca Chlainni Ceallaig: h-I Duibgind (BY198+ Dunns), ocus h-I Geibendaig, ocus Mc Cathail (likely BY198+), ocus Meg Floind, ocus Muinter Murchadan (BY198+ Morgans); ocus Cland Aedagáan (BY198+ Egans), no cur druideadur re h-Ollamnacht an aird-righ.

It would be nice if we could get everyone at least sorted down to the 5 primary clades under R1b-A259:

1. R1b-BY11725
2. R1b-BY3338
3. R1b-A5902
4. R1b-FGC5939
5. R1b-Y166841

When it comes to the Uí Maini, due to the fiasco of their recorded origins, I just cannot place any credence in Mac Fir Bisig, or anyone else for that matter, when it comes to their early histories and genealogies. IDK about anything prior to ~1000 AD. I hope something comes to light, but I fear that is wishful thinking.

Ui Briuin families:
R1b-BY11725 (A10525) Siol Duac Tenga Uma mac Fergusa mac Muiredaig mail, i.e., Muinter Murcadha
R1b-BY3338 Siol Aedh Finn mac fEargna mac Fergusa, aka Ui Briuin Breifne, i.e., O'Reillys and O'Rourkes, etc.
R1b-A5902 Siol Brenainn mac fEargna mac Fergusa: Tellach Dunchadha and Tellach Eachdhach, i.e., MacTigernain and MacSamradhain, etc.
R1b-FGC5939 Siol Muireadaigh Muilleathan of the Ui Briuin,
R1b-Y166841 Royal line of the Ui Briuin, aka O’Connors etc.

Well, yes, but I meant ALL the actual kits, with so many as just R1b-A259 or R1b-A260 right now, not to mention all the unsorted R1b-DF105 kits.

And FYI, we are getting a lot of new kits under R1b-BY20602, which again appears to be the Síl Muiredaig, especially the Mac Diarmata. Several are showing up on YFull from Nebula Genomics tests.

And in that regard, we are seeing Conor/Connor/Conner men showing up under R1b-FGC5939, which begs the million dollar question about the two different Ó Conchobair families, the Tairdelbach Már R1b-Y166841 lineage and the Tadc inda Dúir R1b-A260 lineage. Were there two different Ó Conchobair families that got conflated? Was there a single SCE? Was there a deliberate effort to insert the R1b-Y166841 among the R1b-A260 Síl Muiredaig? If it were only the Ó Conchobair, I would surmise a single SCE. But R1b-Y166841 has those other families, especially the Ó Flannacáin. And the split at R1b-A260 and R1b-Y166841 almost certainly occurred centuries before Tadc inda Dúir. Bear in mind, the Conchobar who was the progenitor of the Ó Conchobair lineage fl. ~850 AD and the TWO sons of Muiredach Máel, Fergus and Cathal, fl. ~450 AD.

As you can see in Dr. Bart Jaski's genealogical tables, there are plenty of men for the R1b-A260 Ó Conchobair to have originated from. The "tainted" R1b-Y166841 line is where the whole question comes in. The O’Conor Don descend from Cathal Crobderg and the Mac Manus from Magnus, two sons of Tairdelbach Már. I don't think we have any of the O’Conor Sligo from Brian Luignech, nor any of the other lines after Tairdelbach Már, nor any of his brothers. But if the O’Conor Don and the Mac Manus are "tainted", then I rather suspect ALL of the Tairdelbach Már lineage is. And sadly, no O’Conor Roe:

During the late 14th century, the Ó Conor dynasty was grouped into two main divisions, one led by Toirdhealbhach Óg Donn Ó Conchobair, the other by Felim MacAedh Ó Conchobair. From these descended the families of Ó Conchubhair Donn anglicized as O'Conor Don and Ó Conchubhair Ruadh anglicized as O'Conor Roe (now extinct).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Conor#History

We know the Mac Diarmata, from Tadc inda Dúir's son Máel Rúamaig, are R1b-A260+. IDK about the Ó Taidc, the lineage from Tadc inda Dúir's son Muiredach. Nor do I know anything about the lines of Tairdelbach Már's four brothers. So where the "taint" came from is anyone's guess right now. The best thing is to find an O’Conor Sligo gentleman to test. We also need to research that Ó Taidc lineage to find a descendant to see if they are R1b-A260+. If so, then it seems likely the "taint" occurred after Tadc inda Dúir's son Conchobar (ruled 966-973 AD).

I was just reading various sources and found this interesting note.

Ua Conchobair, Tadc in Eich Gil (d. 1030), a son of Cathal and overking of Connacht, belonged to the dynasty of Síl Muiredaig. In later sources he is called in Eich Gil (of the white steed) to distinguish him from the earlier Tadc in Túir (of the tower; d. 956) whose father was also named Cathal. The father of the later Tadc, Cathal son of Conchobar from whom descended the family line of Ua Conchobair, died as overking of Connacht in 1010. His mother was Sadb, daughter of Áed grandson of Cellach king of Uí Maine; he apparently had two (or three) brothers (or half-brothers), including Domnall (d. 1013), dubbed in Catt (the cat), and Brian (slain 1028). He himself married Derbfhorgaill, daughter of Tadc son of Gilla-Pátraic king of Osraige; she was the mother of his son Áed in Gaí Bernaig Ua Conchobair, but reportedly she had nine other children through later marriages to husbands that included Tairdelbach Ua Briain (d. 1086).
https://www.dib.ie/biography/ua-conchob ... -gil-a8442

Now there is nothing to suggest that she was anything but a faithful wife, assuming there is actual fact behind that statement, but nonetheless, Derbfhorgaill's personal life/history would raise eyebrows as the place to start looking for an SCE in the Ó Conchobair line after Tadc inda Dúir and before or with Tairdelbach Már.

Also, this is all I can find so far about the Ó Taidc.

1189. Tri mc. la Tadhg Concobar Maelruanaid Muiredach.
1190. Is on Muiredach sin mc. Taidg atat .H. Taidhg .i. Niall Fergal Domnall Gillananaem Tadhg Ferghal Cathal.
https://genelach.org/transcript-book_of ... ml#ClTaidc

It is not much to go on and my searches have provided no further info; but with 7 sons, you would think at least one line survived.

I was puzzling as to when the Ui Maine where one of the Teora Connachta?

In Rawlinson B.502 there is the text:
¶931] Oc Fiachaig Sraiptine con-drecat Úi Néill & in dí Chonnacht as-rubrammar frisin tres Connacht{facsimile page & column 143a} .i. fri Ú Maine .i. Brian & Niall & Fiachra & Ailill & Fergus, cóic m. Echach Mugmedóin m. Muredaich Tírich m. Fiachach Sraiptine m. Carpri Lifechair.

¶932] Maine m. Echdach m. Domnaill m. Fiachach Sraiptine m. Carpri Lifechair in tres Connacht.


Translation:
¶931] When Fiacha Sraiptine confronted Uí Néill and the two Connachts, as we have mentioned, against the third Connacht, that is, against Uí Maine, that is, Brian and Niall and Fiachra and Ailill and Fergus, the five sons of Eochu Mugmedón son of Muredach Tírech son of Fiacha Sraiptine son of Carpre Lífechair.

¶932] Maine son of Echdach son of Domnall son of Fiacha Sraiptine son of Carpre Lífechair in the third Connacht.


All are consider the great grandson of Fiacha Sraiptine son of Carpre Lífechair. With two Connachts considered to be from Brian, Fiachra and Ailill? The other being the Ui Maine, who are from a separate line to everyone else?

The following is quoted from Dr. Bart Jaski in email correspondence about this exact same passage.

Con-drecat means ‘they converge’, so:

Oc Fiachaig Sraiptine con-drecat Úi Néill & in dí Chonnacht as-rubrammar frisin tres Connacht{facsimile page & column 143a} .i. fri Ú Maine .i. Brian & Niall & Fiachra & Ailill & Fergus, cóic m. Echach Mugmedóin m. Muredaich Tírich m. Fiachach Sraiptine m. Carpri Lifechair.

At Fiacha S. the Uí Néill and two Connachta converge (or) as we have said with the three Connachta, i.e. with the Uí Maine, i.e. Brian etc the 5 sons of Echu Muigmedón etc.

The question is whether the Uí Maine are among the three Connachta (tres Connacht) or not. The next entry has:

Maine m. Echdach m. Domnaill m. Fiachach Sraiptine m. Carpri Lifechair in tres Connacht.

See also:

1008. Áed mc Diarmata m. Taidgcc m. Murchada m. Áeda m. Cellaich m. Fínnachta m. Ailella m. Indrechtaich m. Dlúthaich m. Fidchellaich m. Dícolla m. Coirpre m. Cormaicc m. Feradaich m. Lugdach m. Dalláin m. Bressail m. Maine a quo Úi Maine m. Echdach m. Domnaill m. Fiachach Sraiptine.

745. Dá mc Fiachach Sraptine: Muiredach Tírech & Domnall sen Úa Maine (sen = ancestor)

760. Dá mc Fiachach Sraiptene: Muiredach Tírech ocus Domnall a quo Úi Maine Connacht secundum quosdam (= according to others).

Here Fiacha S. is the great-grandfather of Maine, but elsewhere Domnall is the son of Imchad son of Colla Focrith son of Eochu Doimplén son of Cairpre Lifechair (the brother of Fiachu S.). Eochu Doimplén is also the ancestor of the Airgialla.

The three Connachta also exclude the Uí Maine and refer to the Uí Néill, Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach:

762. Cóic mc Echdach: Niall a quo Úi Néill, Brian a quo Úi Briúin, Connacht, Fiachra .i. Foltsnaithech a quo Úi Fiachrach in tres Connacht, Ailill a quo Úi Ailella Connacht, Fergus Cáechán a quo Úi Cháecháin ó Chill Sciri. &rl.

So there are two traditions. Take your pick!

"Here Fiacha S. is the great-grandfather of Maine, but elsewhere Domnall is the son of Imchad son of Colla Focrith son of Eochu Doimplén son of Cairpre Lifechair (the brother of Fiachu S.). Eochu Doimplén is also the ancestor of the Airgialla."

The oldest genealogical tracts make Fiacha S. is the great-grandfather of Maine, only after the Book of Leinster does it change and they are not the only family to have their origin changed in the Book of Leinster.

Also the Book of Leinster also supports descend from Fiacha S.:
GENELACH .H. MANI.
[gap: name omitted/extent: ? letters] m Aeda m Diarmata m Thaidc m Murchada m Aeda m Cellaig m Fhiannachtai m Ailella m Inrechtaig m Dluthaig m Fhithchellaig m Dicolla m Eogain Fhind m Cormaic m Corpri Chruim m Fheradaig m Lugdach m Dallain m Bresail m Mani m Echach m Domnaill m Fhiachach Sroptine m Carpri Lifechair.

Is St Lomman Atha Truim that we find Colla Mend as a ancestor:
Lomman Atha Truim .m. Dallain m. Bresail .m. Mane mc Domnaill m Colla Mind .m. Echdach Domlen.

While St Bec becomes a member of the Cenel Maine:
Bec mc De Druad m. Gnoe m Lugdach m Dallain m Bresail m Mane m Neil Noigiallaig.

The origin narrative of the Ui Maine is changing with time, from Fiacha S. to Colla Menn. Also their status is changing with time, the 12th century Lebor na Ceart, the Ui Maine are a tributary tribe and no longer a free tribe such as the UI Briuin and Ui Fiachrach are described.

"762. Cóic mc Echdach: Niall a quo Úi Néill, Brian a quo Úi Briúin, Connacht, Fiachra .i. Foltsnaithech a quo Úi Fiachrach in tres Connacht, Ailill a quo Úi Ailella Connacht, Fergus Cáechán a quo Úi Cháecháin ó Chill Sciri. &rl."

If Ui Maine were once a member of the three Connachta, yet become a tributary tribe by the 12ht century or earlier. Wouldn't there be good reason for them to have been replaced in the concept of Tres Connachta? As for when the Ui Ailella, seemly, get replaced by Siol Muireadhaigh?

Also the passage reads:
"¶760] Dá mc Fiachach Sraiptene: Muiredach Tírech ocus Domnall a quo Úi Maine Connacht secundum quosdam.

¶761] Óenmc Muredaich Tírig: Eochuid Mugmedón nó Muinbecán.

¶762] Cóic mc Echdach: Niall a quo Úi Néill, Brian a quo Úi Briúin, Connacht, Fiachra .i. Foltsnaithech a quo Úi Fiachrach in tres Connacht, Ailill a quo Úi Ailella Connacht, Fergus Cáechán a quo Úi Cháecháin ó Chill Sciri. &rl."

Is it saying only that Úi Fiachrach is in the tres Connacht? and the Ui Maine, Ui Briuin and Ui Ailella are of the Connachta?

I think Bart said it best, "Take your pick!"

It is obvious from the Y-DNA data that both the Uí Conchobair and Uí Maini genealogies have been badly tampered with. I hope we can untangle it eventually, but we may never be able to. That said, I reject Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine as ever having existed with the current Y-DNA data we have. On the other hand, I am becoming more open to the idea that Maine son of Niall Noígíallach actually did exist and that HE may have been the only true son of Niall, whereas all the others were grandsons, and by necessity, sons of Maine. This is based on the various death dates. Hopefully, we will start seeing more granular Y-DNA data coming out very soon to answer these questions.

Ollam wrote: Wed, 2023-Aug-30 1:06 am I think Bart said it best, "Take your pick!"

It is obvious from the Y-DNA data that both the Uí Conchobair and Uí Maini genealogies have been badly tampered with. I hope we can untangle it eventually, but we may never be able to. That said, I reject Domnall son of Fiachu Sraibtine as ever having existed with the current Y-DNA data we have. On the other hand, I am becoming more open to the idea that Maine son of Niall Noígíallach actually did exist and that HE may have been the only true son of Niall, whereas all the others were grandsons, and by necessity, sons of Maine. This is based on the various death dates. Hopefully, we will start seeing more granular Y-DNA data coming out very soon to answer these questions.

I don't think we have to "Take a pick", both sections work perfectly together with out conflict and with the yDNA results.

The simple answer is the fossilized pedigree (which appears (so far) in every genealogical tract) of the Ui Maine origin is correct (as Irish genealogies go). This gives the Ui Maine same descend as the Ui Briuin, Ui Neill and Ui Fiachrach, thus matching the yDNA from the Sen Ui Maine families, i.e., being a branch of DF105. (The O Ceallaigh have no Galway relatives, even those that claim to be branches of the O Ceallaigh.) That the O'Ceallaigh do not match who they ruled, just reflects a pattern in yDNA were the ruling tribal lines are at best remotely related to the tribe, like the O'Connors, or totally foreign as with the O'Neill over the Cenel Eoghain.

yDNA result do require the Ui Briuin to be descend from Domnall m. Fiachach Sraptine m. Carpri Lifechair and not Muiredach Tírech m. Fiachach Sraptine m. Carpri Lifechair. I trust the yDNA result over the earliest source that claims Niall, Briun, AIlell, Fiachra are brother, namely a piece of Ui Neill propaganda, that while bring the Ui Briuin closer to the Ui Neill - acknowledges tells the audience of the superiority of the Ui Neills over the Ui Briuin. Niall took the forge.

We can also see how the downward movement of the Ui Maine, in the history portion of Rawlinson B.502 and within the entries of the Annals, which explains also their social demotion:

Rawlinson tells of demotion and the annals shows the Ui Briuin expansion at the expense of the Ui Maine.
"When Fiacha Sraiptine confronted Uí Néill and the two Connachts, as we have mentioned, against the third Connacht, that is, against Uí Maine, that is, Brian and Niall and Fiachra and Ailill and Fergus, the five sons of Eochu Mugmedón son of Muredach Tírech son of Fiacha Sraiptine son of Carpre Lífechair.
Maine son of Echdach son of Domnall son of Fiacha Sraiptine son of Carpre Lífechair in the third Connacht"

Pedigree sections still calls the Ui Maine as of Connacht, in the same manner of Úi Ailella Connacht, there no informational difference between the sections. Except that now the Ui Maine have more lines between them and the so called descendants of Muiredach Tírech m. Fiachach Sraptine m. Carpri Lifechair:

"Dá mc Fiachach Sraiptene: Muiredach Tírech ocus Domnall a quo Úi Maine Connacht secundum quosdam.
Óenmc Muredaich Tírig: Eochuid Mugmedón nó Muinbecán.
Cóic mc Echdach: Niall a quo Úi Néill, Brian a quo Úi Briúin, Connacht, Fiachra .i. Foltsnaithech a quo Úi Fiachrach in tres Connacht, Ailill a quo Úi Ailella Connacht, Fergus Cáechán a quo Úi Cháecháin ó Chill Sciri. &rl.""

Hence the logical description in the 14th century Book of Lecan:
Condachta .i . Sil Briain agus Sil Fiachra agus Sil Ailella

Francis J. Brynes overstatement its mean, as it in not way states that the Teora Connachta is made up of the Ui Briuin, Ui Fiachrach and Ui Ailella, that is purely his assumption. It can be seen as simply a restatement of what is in teh pedigree section of the Rawlinson B.502. namely: "Fiachra .i. Foltsnaithech a quo Úi Fiachrach in tres Connacht, Ailill a quo Úi Ailella Connacht,".

In the Book of Lecan we continued separation of the Ui Maine from other Connachta families. This isn't very surprising, when we consider that the Ui Maine in the 12th century Book of Rights were considered a tributary tribe. As unfree tribe form taxation, and hence cannot legal be a Connachta due to the conflict between taxing kin.

And Book of Rights actually try's to explain that the Ui Maine are not actually tributes, the tributes are from those that the king has allowed the Ui Maine to rule over. That is Father Walsh's explanation for this passage:

"Though this fine tribute is given
By the Ui Maine to the great plain (of Cruachain),
It is for their own country
That it is lawful to keep up the tribute "

Yet, we can see the transformation of the Ui Maine from Connachta to non-Connachta status as the genealogies evolve, reflecting their tributary status. The 12th century Book of Leinster, shows this modification of genealogical origin from Connacht to the status of Airgialla, "those who give hostages".

What we see is the Ui Maine being politically exiled from the power center within the Connachta, and thus moved further and further from the Connachta identify.