Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

Hi, I was referred to this forum from the Sons of Aodh project. I was looking for a primer or references to understand the classification system used in the project. Specifically, how are the people in my grouping connected ?

I found the DCG welcome page and that was helpful from a high level perspective. But I want to relate it now to my Kenny heritage.
BY165369. I have traced back to the East Galway area, Clontuskert 5 generations back. Peter Kenny from Australia who is also BY165369 connects into Moore Parish, Cloonburren. We are assuming we are part of the O'Kenny sept but do not have anything to base that on other than location. The only reference I can find on the sept is John Joe Grenham's Moore, The Customs and Traditions of a Rural Community 1983. On page 19, he states "the first O'Cynay (O'Kenny) came to Clonburren as Steward of a Nunnery there... the O'Kennys came from Moynterkenny alias "Boresh" between Clonfert and Banagher and is not Moore Parish. ......Moynterkenny was shared by another family known as MacGiollaFhionain, now known as Glennon or Finnan.
Given how many Kennys there are, I am surprised that I can't find more historical information on them. So that is one thing I am seeking.

I think that is because we have so many different unconnected Irish branches (not counting the English Kenny who also settled in the area). So seeing the Irish names classification scheme I thought you could help on segmenting the different groups of Irish Kennys. For example, O'Cionnaith seems to be the Ui Maine O'Kenny Sept. You state that Ui Maine is separate from DCG and I am placed in a DCG category. What can I infer from this classification then about me being part of Ui Maine ?

From a DNA perspective, ideally, I am looking for something tangible like Peter Biggins' Null 425 that can differentiate results. As he states not all Colla historical names are part of Colla.

So I would appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks Mike Kenny

Attached are some addition Irish spellings from Wikipedia that resolve into a variations of Kenny.

Kinney : Variant of the Scottish Patronymic name Kenney derived from the Gaelic given name Cionaodha , of unknown origin, but likely composed of the elements cion = respect + Aodh = pagan god of fire. Occasionally Kenney is derived as an Irish Patronymic name through the Anglicizing of O'Coinnigh -- 'descendant of Coinneach . Variations are McKinney, McKenney, McKenna, McKinna , and McKennan , among others.
Kenny: The name is numerous in Ireland. It has seventy-sixth place in the list of commonest surnames. The majority of the people belong to families located in Counties Galway and Roscommon. This is the homeland in early times, as well as to-day, of the O'Kenny sept which in Irish is Ó Cionnaoith. It is of the Uí Máine (Hy Many) and the same stock as the O'Maddens. Another sept of the same name was in early times in County Tyrone, but there is little trace of it left there now. When Kennys are found of long standing connection with County Down, they are probably of the minor Ulster sept of Ó Coinne.

Mike I found this as well. In the 13th century O'Dugan, in his Topograhical Poems, makes note of the MacConsnamha (Mac Kinnawe, Ford) over Clann Chionaoith (Kenny) family in the Breifne region, its not Seola territory but I seem to remember there was some movement back and forth between the 2 areas. David will set me straight though

Mike,

Your R1b-BY165369 near terminal clade puts you under the R1b-FGC5939 clade. This clade has several surnames that seem to point to it being the clade of the vassal or retainer families to the Muinter Murchada chieftain line of the Uí Briúin Seóla. The families and their positions were enumerated in a document written circa 1100 AD known as the Muinter Murchada Tract. There are several recensions of this tract, one being in the second link, but the one in the third link mentions an Ó Cendétig family as part of the Uí Briúin Ratha, of whom the Ó Dathlaích were chieftains. Ó Cendétig is translated as O’Kennedy in the third recension, but it is possible it was also Anglicized as O’Kenney. This is speculation, not fact at this point in time.

The Cland Cináeda that Tim referenced is an Uí Briúin Bréifne sept, which falls under the R1b-BY3338 clade; so they are only distantly related to the Uí Briúin Ratha Ó Cendétig family. As you may have noted, one of the problems we face in tracing families is that surnames that are obviously different in Gaelic get Anglicized to the same surname when English pronunciation is applied to them.

The other point is that the territories of most of the Uí Briúin Seóla vassal or retainer families was in the southern part of Co. Galway where the territories of the Uí Briúin Seóla, the Uí Fiachrach Aidne, and the Uí Maini abutted one another. We think we may may be seeing signs that the R1b-FGC5939 clade may also be a little bit of melting pot of these 3 dynasties. However, the chieftain lines of the Uí Fiachrach Aidne and the Uí Maini are definitely in clades that are quite distant from R1b-FGC5939.

What we are doing by correlating modern surnames with the traditional Irish genealogies and annals is still very much a work in progress. But bit by bit we are making headway in nailing down where the old genealogies are accurate and where they diverge from what the Y-DNA is revealing. I hope that helps.

Thank you very much, lots of good info here that will take me a while to digest.

A couple of quick questions-
1. Do you have any info on the O'Kenny sept ? Would they also be part of the FGC5939 clade ? Most of the histories I've seen relate them to the O'Maddens, Kellys, and Ui Maine.
2. Is there a DNA differentiator that links us in this grouping together ?
3. Where do you recommend I focus my research ? Most of the Kennys I match (autosomal) with in this area go back to about 1790 in their histories and stop there. I have found only 1 Kenny in Moore Parish that took a Y DNA test and that was at 37. He has now passed away. Do you know of any group focusing on getting Y testing done in this area ?
4. Both Peter Kenny and I are BY165369 on the BigY test. Is there any advantage to us upgrading to 700 ? I notice you have him at a different clade than me on the STR analyzer. Peter traces to Cloonburren and I trace back to Clontuskert about 1790. So close but different sides of the river.

Again, thank you very much for this insight.
Stay safe, Mike Kenny

David,

Thank you for sharing your 2020 Jul 18 response to Mike. I believe much of what you exposed to him about the Muinter Murchada line of the Ui Briuin Seola melting pot of vassal/retainer families in that southeastern area of Co Galway applies to my O'Flannacain/Flanigan line (FTDNA 252712) with a terminal clad of R1b-FT185431. I'm now just right of the Kenneys on the DCG Cladogram.

My genealogy research trail ends with my earliest known ancestor being a Daniel and Hugh Flannigan in/around Longford Town, Co Longford circa 1800. I suspect they may have relocated from southeastern Co Galway or its border area of Co Roscommon in the late 1700s and were not in Longford very long prior to the 1800 church records of the RC Parish of Ballymacormick/Templemichael.

Any variance of thought you would add to my particular scenario versus Mike's?

Thanks,
Bill Flanigan

Mike & Bill,

Firstly, I moved this thread to the Uí Briúin subforum as it is more appropriate.

[ url=https://dcg.genealogy.network/cladogram.xhtml?clade=R1b-FGC5939 ]
Please keep in mind the DCG Cladogram is like a family tree. The big difference is we cannot see every generation, but only the generations where Y-DNA mutations occurred. There are several kinds of Y-DNA mutations, but the primary kind is the SNP. Work has been done on studying the mutation rate of SNPs on the Y chromosome. The mutation rate is a factor of how many base pairs are tested on the Y chromosome. The BigY 700 tests many more base pairs so it has a faster mutation rate of one SNP occurring every 83 years on median. The BigY 500 tests fewer base pairs so it has a slower mutation rate of one SNP occurring every 125 years on median. But these rates are based on statistical analysis and have a LARGE window of slop associated with them.

Most of the clade nodes (the brown boxes on the DCG Cladogram) have been verified with BigY 700 testing by now; so the mutation rate for them is the 83 years per SNP. But keep in mind this is a median figure and can vary greatly. In general, only the unique terminal clades of men who have done BigY testing will be affected by which version of the BigY test they took.

So to answer your question, Mike, I am not sure if you or Peter has done the BigY 700 test, but if the gentleman who has only done a BigY 500 test were to do a more advanced NGS or WGS test, you would see more SNPs similar in number to what the BigY 700 tested man and Bill and the other Ó Flannacáin gentleman have. You may also find you share more SNPs in common, similar to what the Ó Flannacáin gentleman do.

HOWEVER, before doing any upgrade on a test, let us have a separate conversion. This is where I and the Sons Of Aodh admins disagree. I think it is a complete waste of money to buy a BigY 700 test, when there is at least one company you can buy a full 30X WGS test from without too much differential in cost. The reasons for that are a huge topic, but you can start reading these posts, if you are interested. I will be happy to answer any questions the best I can, in the appropriate thread.

There are several things to keep in mind.

1. The DCG is a volunteer group, so we do NOT have access to the complete FTDNA database. We only glean data from a select few publicly posted project results and other public sources. As a result, we know we do not have the complete R1b-DF104+ data set, which means that there may be more men who have tested and are related to you that we don't know about.
2. The location of the smaller subclades on the DCG Cladogram is still somewhat arbitrary. The fact that the Kennys and Flanigans are next to each other is happenstance at the present.
3. Not every branch of every major family was tracked and recorded. The genealogies's primary purpose was to keep track of those families who were eligible for chieftainship. As a result, family branches that grew too distant from the main line were ignored. So it is always possible that these distant families independently adopted surnames that were the same as that of families that were recorded.
4. Mike, you asked about a genetic marker. R1b-FGC5393 IS the marker. The fact you are positive for that marker means you are absolutely, positively Uí Briúin genetically, without a single doubt or shred of ambiguity. Here is a link to a chart that shows the splits between the Dál Cuinn, the Uí Maini, and the Cland Colla. As you can see, it has been millennia since any of these 3 groups were connected.
   
   However, this only confirms a genetic connection. It does not, nor cannot, determine anything about political or marital alliances, allegiances, etc. So whether the Uí Maini O’Kenny sept is a blood relationship or a political alliance with the Uí Maini O’Kelly chieftain line remains to be determined. There just needs to be more data.
5. Bill, the area of southern Co. Galway we are talking about allows for 2 other possibilities besides an unrecorded family. The first is an SCE of the Uí Briúin Aí Ó Flannacáin family, although they were centered more in Co. Roscommon. The second is an SCE of the Óc Bethra Ó Flannacáin family. They were a non Dál Cuinn tribe that had settled in the Aidne area before it was taken over by the Uí Fiachrach Aidne. They became staunch allies / supporters / vassals of the Uí Fiachrach Aidne. Ask Gráinne / Grace about this tribe, as she thinks her Uí Fiachrach Aidne Ó Flannacáins MAY be an SCE of this tribe too.
   [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciarraige_Óic_Bethra ]
   [ http://sites.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/connacht.htm#aid ]

Mike, I really don't know of any recommendations to focus your research on other than try to find out what you can about the Ó Cendétig family from the Muinter Murchada Tract. You could also look for matches with the other families mentioned in conjunction with the Uí Briúin Ratha, like the Ó Dathlaích, whose surname was Anglicized to O’Dolly although sometimes to O’Daly. I have looked before since Dolly is such a distinctive surname, and I found a Frank Dolly in Tuam, Co. Galway who is a County Councilor. With his surname and his location, he would be an excellent candidate for testing. You could try to contact him directly to see if he has any interest; and if he does, I have a recommendation about what test to buy. But bear in mind, all of this is ONLY my speculation. It is always possible your line was one of the unrecorded lines, unfortunately.

And to answer your question, there is no program or project that I am aware of to Y-DNA test men in Ireland. I wish there was. There was the ATLAS project, but that was for AT-DNA, or autosomal DNA. I have been in contact with Dr. Gianpiero Cavalleri who was one of the leads on the ATLAS project, but they were not interested in Y-DNA.

I hope I answered your questions satisfactorily, but if not, or if I missed one, or you have more, please don't hesitate to ask.

David,

Thanks so much for taking the time to layout the detailed explanation of the SNP mutation rates and clarification on possible tribal associations of my O'Flannacain line. The related links you provided may also prove useful in piecing things together. It seems more and more likely that my sept became an unrecorded family over time. As you say, more testing by others will eventually bring these relationships into better focus. I'll continue to collaborate with Grace on these O'Flannacain origins and relationships.

Thanks again for your thoughts...much appreciated!

Bill

Bill,

You are very welcome. It is my pleasure to help out where I can. Best of luck on tracing your lineage. If you find a definite connection to the Uí Briúin Seóla, please let me know. I descend from the Mac Dondchada cadet branch of the Muinter Murchada Ó Flaithbertaig, so I have a keen interest in all things relating to the Uí Briúin Seóla.

BTW, as a (wryly humorous) lesson in being careful about learning your heritage, supposedly as Dál Cuinn we descend from these people. That makes the stories about the backwoods of the Ozarks look tame by comparison.

David,
I am absolutely amazed at how knowledgeable everyone is and how clear you are in your explanations. Thank you.

It is taking me a while to get through the info you sent me and I am still digesting things. I have some additional questions/suggestions:
1. Testing - I will hold off on additional testing. The net is to try to get more people to test or for them to update their testing. I was talking to a guy that tested at DNA37 who was disappointed in what he found out. Is there a minimum level of testing you recommend ?

2. In your note to me you mentioned, "Mike, you asked about a genetic marker. R1b-FGC5393 IS the marker. " Is this a typo ? Did you mean FGC5939 ?

3. I have read through the Ui Briuin posts. This one had a link that gave me a cross reference to names and had the Muinter Murchada name on it but it did not seem to have me on it. Having these names is very helpful so I would suggest keeping them. Is this cross reference still accurate ? (i assume this post link is sitting out on the internet somewhere and has not been refrteshed??? The link did not copy R1b-A10525.)
New Subclade Added To R1b-BY11724
Post by Admin » Fri, 2020-May-29 2:04 am
FTDNA added the R1b-FT109135 clade to their public Haplotree today.
This is a very exciting addition because it adds a third direct subclade to the R1b-BY11724 Uí Briúin Seóla clade. The R1b-A10525 subclade gives every evidence of being at least part of the descendants of Amalgaid Airchorach, one of Cenn Fáelad mac Colgáin's recorded sons, and some of whom later adopted the cland name Muinter Murchada, of whom the Ó Flaithbertaig were the chief family.

4. It would be good to have an overall description of Muinter Murchada and the placement of the whole Ui Briuin dynasty. I am looking for something a little deeper than what is on Wikipedia. I think I saw a post with a lineage chart for Ui Briuin Seola but did not see Muntir Murchada on it. I find these lineage charts very helpful. It would be great to have one for each of the 3 Ui Briuin branches.

Again, thank you very much for sharing all this information. Mike

Mike,

My pleasure.

Firstly, yes, that was a typo. It should be R1b-FGC5939. My sincere apologies for that.

The Uí Briúin info on Wikipedia is spread out all over the place in various articles. You just have to keep clicking on all the related links. But this is the article on the Muinter Murchada.

There are also a plethora of resources linked to on the DCG website. They are under the compass icon in the menu. You may need to click the 3 gold bars icon in the upper right to get the menu drop down. You should definitely download a copy of Dr. Bart Jaski's Genealogical Tables. The link is on the menu.

There are many other resources as I mentioned. You may like Roderic O’Flaherty's hIar Connaught (West Connacht). Roderic was one of the last O’Flaherty of the Muinter Murchada chieftain line. The link is on the menu too. And yes, I am making you use the DCG website to increase my hit count. But I promise you there is no ad tracking or any of that BS. I hate that crap myself and would never do that to anyone else.

You may get to any clade you want on the DCG Cladogram by using the following format in the address bar of your browser:

https://dcg.genealogy.network/cladogram.xhtml?clade=R1b-FGC5939
(This is just an example, so don't click it. The forum software automatically tries to make anything that looks like a link into a link.)

or whichever clade you want to see. Once on the Cladogram page, you may click any of the gold clade names to take you to that specific clade. Also, click the red X on the drop down menu and at the top you will see the chain of clades from R1b-DF104 down to the clade you are looking at. Again, you may click on any of the upstream clades to go there.

R1b-BY11724 gives strong evidence of being the Uí Briúin Seóla chieftain line that eventually became the Muinter Murchada and the O’Flaherty sept. R1b-FGC5939 is parallel to R1b-BY11724. They are both branches of R1b-A260. R1b-FGC5939 is not technically part of the Muinter Murchada lineage, which probably developed around the R1b-BY18145 clade under R1b-BY11724. But many of the surnames showing up under R1b-FGC5939 are mentioned in the Muinter Murchada Tract (link is on the menu) as vassal or retainer families, so there was a closer connection between these 2 clades than other branches under R1b-A260.

I know that is a lot of info, so if any further questions arise, please fire away. Remember, we are looking at a heritage and history spanning almost 2 millennia. Brión (from whom the Uí Briúin) and his brothers, who were the progenitors of the Connachta dynasties as well as the Uí Néill, are dated to circa 350 AD. There are those who discount all this as myths and legends, but the Y-DNA is proving for the most part that those old tale tellers were either remarkably prescient; OR, they were recounting factual history. I am convinced it was the latter.

About Y-DNA testing, that is a long and complex subject; but the upshot is I cannot in good conscience recommend ANY FTDNA product as the technology now stands. WGS, or Whole Genome Sequencing, is the only way to go now. When you are ready, we can have a more detailed conversation. In the meantime, you may read this thread and this other thread.