Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

I posted this earlier on FTDNA...

In this article from 2018, Maurice Gleeson refers to an SDS (surname switch) which can occur when supporters (sept) of a clan adopted the clan surname.
https://dnaandfamilytreeresearch.blogsp ... es-of.html

From the DNA results in the Clan Munro Project, the Foulis Munros fall under I-P37 while the sept members mostly fall under R-M269 such as myself with a terminal haplogroup of R-A21174. (see kit #635203)

There are five of us, all Munro/Monroe, that are Y111 matches with GD of 4 to 6. The two GD 6 matches to me have taken the taken the Big Y700 test and have formed a new twig beside me on the block tree. Out of 72 Y700 matches, there are the two Munro/Monroe and close by under R-BY11723 > R-A883 are several Riley/O'Reilly/Reilly members. It appears those of us Munro/Monroe members split away by testing negative for A883.

Could those of us Munro/Monroe members have been a result of an SDS from the Riley line? The Clan Munro Chieftain's late mother 'Timmy' Munro indicated the possibility four years ago (not necessarily Riley) when we visited Scotland.

And then there is this...

https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/8992395. Donald Munro (died 1039) is the first traditional chief of the Clan Munro. Donald's father, O'Caan is said to have been the Prince of Fermanagh.

Fermanagh, Caven, Lietrim are all in the geographic area for a large portion of my Big Y matches and some surname paper trails.

Mark,

It is very possible your surname is the result of an SCE - Surname Change Event. There are many possible reasons for that.

The link to Donald Munro of Foulis leads to the link about his purported father, O’Caan, at which link the surname is traced back to Ó Catháin, the famous family from the Derry area. But we have strong evidence that this family is under R1b-S595, which does not fit you at all.

Further, the Buchanan family has a similar origin story of being descended from Anselan O'Kyan (Ó Catháin), son of the King of Ulster about 1016 AD. But we have not seen any of them under R1b-S595 either.

So these origin stories do not appear to be viable. An SCE of the Ó Rogallaig is very possible, from the Y-DNA. But so also is an unrecorded Muinter Maíl Mórda family. The exact circumstances for the origin of the Monroe surname may be difficult to trace. The Muinter Maíl Mórda split into at least 4 distinct septs:

1. Uí Rogallaig (O’Reilly, etc.)
2. Tellach Cerbaill
3. Tellach Garbitha
4. Muinter Cináeda (Ford, etc.)

It would appear that Ó Maíl Ruaid MAY be the best origin for Monroe, but you are most certainly NOT Uí Fiachrach. So there are a lot of possibilities to research, I'm afraid. Your best bet may be to carefully scan through the topographical poems to see if there is any mention of a similar surname around the Bréifne region. I wish I had something more concrete to offer. Best wishes, Mark!

David,

Thank you for timely and illustrated response. It goes right along with my suspicions. I thought my own experience with paper trails, SCE, and what to watch for may help others filter their research. One of my biggest hindrances with my own research of the Monroe line is with my own relatives. They grew up believing we are of the Foulis Munro line but the DNA says otherwise. In my case, I see so many uploaded family trees of my Monroe line with impossible and forced connections to the Foulis Munros that are illogical. Without the DNA terminal haplogroup and matches, I probably would be facing the wrong brick wall without realizing it.

Also, thanks for the gentle reminder of the Ó Maíl Ruaid connection. It is in the back of my mind with the variation of surnames. I see them pop up from time to time with no luck to date on possible connections. I have noticed some parish documents becoming more available on the web and need to check to see if the parish of Ardagh is among them. Thanks for the dialog! Since I don't think my ancestors had pen and paper back in the day, I'll go back and look for those recently posted parish documents.

Best regards,

Mark

Mark,

Researchers in my own line did the same thing, trying to force fit ridiculous connections with my MDKA, by trying to make him the grandson of a Gallowglass McDonnell immigrant to DE ~1690 AD. The dates were impossible, and thankfully we got Y-DNA confirmation of that back in 2010 AD or so. Unfortunately, that absurd connection is embedded in the LDS genealogical records and cannot be dislodged - I tried, but the LDS curators wouldn't even discuss it.

BTW, here are a few links for free books to search, particularly the Topographical Poems:

https://archive.org/details/cambrensiseverus01lyncuoft

https://archive.org/details/topographicalpoe00odonuoft
https://archive.org/details/topographicalpo01dubgoog
https://archive.org/details/topographicalpoe00odon