Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

Just letting people know that the Doherty project completed a Y700 test on an O'Dogherty descended from the younger brother of Cahir O'Dogherty. Cahir was the last Gaelic chieftain of clann O'Dochartaigh who had a pedigree that stretches back to Niall - for what it is worth. Of course there is no way to determine any possible NPEs along the path from the 1st Dochartaig down to Sir Sean O'Dogherty (c1540 - 1601), the father to Cahir and John/Sean O'Dogherty, the tester descending from the son John/Sean.

We already had tested this line with Pascual O'Dogherty, (1920-2020) who was the younger brother to Ramon O'Dogherty. Ramon in 1990 was recognized by the Chief Herald in Ireland as a living Chieftain of the Name as they have somewhat decent evidence that their Spanish line is descended from Cahir's younger brother. This is because of two descendants in the 1700s needing to be recognized as such for being admitted to Spanish Naval School. There is documents that support this connection and the deceased Pascual and the new tester O'Dogherty (IN104150) both match each other for their known 1/2 1C2R (Pascaul being 2 generations above tester IN104150).

Pascaul (38173) is already added to Alex's Big Tree, I just added the new tester Alex O'Dogherty to the Warehouse as well.

You can view the pedigree here: HERE with #126 being Cahir (last chieftain) and #127 being his younger brother John which Alex and Pascual descend from.

Again, skepticism is always welcome when dealing with such old lines but these two do represent the likely real connection to Cahir's younger brother, and thus to the first Dochartaig into the ancient Irish Pedigrees.

Zack Daugherty
Volunteer Administrator of the Doherty Surname Project
zack.dohertysurname@gmail.com

Zack,

Much appreciated info! It is always good to find Y-DNA results that match with the pedigree of a known cland chieftain. We now have TWO such men, the new Ó Dochartaig gentleman you are referring to and whose result I just posted; and of course, the O’Conor Don gentleman. The fact that they both tie back to R1b-DF105 goes a long way to help validate the traditional genealogies. As the Y-DNA data grows, in general it continues to correlate well with the genealogies; there are egregious divergences too, but those seem to be the exception, not the rule.

Zack,

Here are the finalized results from The Big Tree: viewtopic.php?p=756#p756.

I sent in FTDNA's current MRCA Y-SNP Age Estimates of BY471 and descendants to David Vance of SAPP so his SNPTree output generates these dates in its tree output image. I encircled the 2 Chieftain Line testers and produced nodes from them running up to the base O'Dochartaigh group's Y-SNP, BY471.

So, in theory, the O'Connor Don Royal line (Sil Muireadhaigh) and this O'Dochartaigh Chieftain line converge at #86 in this lineage. Their convergent SNP between them is R-DF105 dated to 350 CE with the MRCA having died in 365 CE. So not bad (assuming I have all this correct and accounting for the unknown accuracy of these ancient lineages).

Click on link for High Resolution Image: LINK

Zack,

Not bad at all; especially if we assume for argument's sake that the last mutation in the R1b-DF105 phylogenetic node (whichever of the 3 it actually was) occurred in Eóchád Muigmedón, and his death date was synchronized by Dr. Daniel P. Mc Carthy to 362 AD. If we guestimate his birth year as ~300 AD, and use my heuristic of one mutation per generation, mutations occur every other generation, and generations are every 30 years, then the first mutation in the R1b-DF105 phylogenetic node occurred ~180 AD.

According to the genealogies, this would be Cormac Ulfada AKA Cormac mac Airt, grandson of Conn Cétchathach. It is certainly making these early genealogies look feasible. FYI, purely by the dates given in the annals and the genealogies, the data we have so far tends to suggest that R1b-DF104 MAY have occurred in Conn Cétchathach himself.

Still, I can't wait until T2T gapless Y chromosome testing becomes affordable (US$1000 or less). I speculate we may find there is a Y chromosome mutation in every generation, which would be fantastic for counting generations. Time will tell.