Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

Looking at FGC5939, Vassels of Ui Briuin, I came across the Delbhna who had multiple branches across the Galway/Roscommon area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delbhna
My Kennys that have tested seem to match all their geographic areas. Also under my Kenny blog entry there was a Flanigan who is also a FGC5939. Branch Delbhna Nuadat took the name Flanagan. Delbhna Cuile Fabhair was conquered by Ui Briuin and became Muintir Marchada who the FGC5939 Kennys were previously assigned to.
So I am wondering if FGC5939 is Delbhna with the people who have tested matching the various branches ? Or some element of it ? They fit the vassel requirement ???

Comments ?

Mike K.,

Thanks for posting the Wiki on the Delbhna and the reference to their chiefs taking the surname O'Flannagain. As you know, you and I have a quite close DNA link under FGC5939. I'm probably the Flanigan you were referring to in the Kenny blog. Our geographic origins currently seem to match the general areas associated with the Delbhna.

Folks,

You are entering the figurative territory that Mike Rowley and I have been exploring for the last few months and I was waiting for more Y-DNA test results before posting about, but since you have broached the subject, here goes.

The annals entries do seem to give clues that the Delbna Nuadat were likely conquered and their territory seized by an outside group as early as 756 AD, so that later references to the Delbna Nuadat were referring to the literal territory name and not the current inhabitants of it, who were NOT the same people who originally gave their name to the territory. This happened fairly frequently in Irish records, which, of course, leads to massive confusion and misunderstanding.

Also, there were at least THREE (3) different, unrelated Uí Crimthainn tribes in Irish history: one in Connacht (AKA Cruffon), one in Meath, and one in Leinster. The one we are interested in is, of course, the one in Connacht, whose territory later became known as Cruffon, which apparently was previously the Delbna Nuadat territory.

756 AD

AT756.6	The battle of Belach Cró gained by Crimthann over the Delbna of Uí Maine, wherein Finn son of Arb, king of the Delbna, fell by Tipraite Finn, and a slaughter of the Delbna including him. And hence are the place-names Lochán Belaig Cró and Tipra Finn.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p256
AFM751.10	The battle of Bealach Cro was gained by Crimhthann over the Dealbhna of Ui Maine, in which was slain Finn, son of Arbh, Lord of Dealbhna, at Tibra Finn, and the Dealbhna were slaughtered about him. From this are named Lochan Bealaigh Cro, and Tibra Finn. The Ui Maine were contending with them for the cantred between the Suca the River Suck and the Sinainn the River Shannon, for this was called the cantred of Dealbhna. Of this was said: The battle of the speckled hosts of Bealach Cro, pitiable the journey of the Dealbhna to it. Crimhthann the warlike brought destruction on the fierce Dealbhna Nuadhat. Finn, son of Arbh, chief king of Dealbhna, was wounded with large spears, Of the fierce battle was he chief, until he fell at Tibra Finn.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005A.html#p355

Note: These annals entries above give rise to some plausible speculation that Uí Crimthainn (Cruffon) was founded at this point in time and consisted of the entirety of the Delbna Nuadat territory. Further, it causes some interesting questions to arise as to exactly who the Uí Maini were until ~1048 AD; after which point it is apparent that the non Dál Cuind Ó Cellaig had assumed the ascendancy.

757 AD

	Kilmore Monastery #2	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _Roscommon
AU757.3	The burning of Cell Mór Dithraib by the Uí Chremthainn.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100001A.html#p211
AT757.3	The burning of Cell Mór Dithrib the great church of the desert = Kilmore by the Uí Crimthainn.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p257
AFM752.4	Cill Mor Dithraibh was burned by the Ui Crumthainn.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005A.html#p355

879 AD

AU879.8	Mael Caere, chief of Uí Chremthainn, was killed.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100001A.html#p337
AFM876.8	and Maelcaere, lord of Ui Cremthainn, died.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005A.html#p523

Note: It is unclear as to which Uí Crimthainn these annals entries above refer to.

1028 AD

AU1029.3	Brian ua Conchobuir, heir designate of Connacht, was killed by his own people.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100001A.html#p467
AT1027.10	Brian son of Cathal Ó Conchobhair, crown prince of Connacht, was killed by Maelseachnaill Ó Maelruanaidh, king of Crimthann.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p368
AI1028.6	Brian Ua Conchobuir, royal heir of Connachta, dies.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100004.html#p197
AFM1029.3	Brian Ua Conchobhair, royal heir of Connaught, was slain by Maelseachlainn, son of Maelruanaidh, lord of Crumhthann.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005B.html#p817
CS1028.5	Brian son of Cathal ua Conchobuir, heir designate of Connacht, was killed by Mael Sechnaill ua Maílruanaidh.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100016.html#p227

1030 AD

AFM1030.8	An eclipse of the sun on the day before the Calends of September.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005B.html#p819
AT1030.4	Roscommon and Elphin and the whole of Magh nAí were laid waste.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p370
CS1030.4	Ros Comáin and Ailfinn and all Mag Aí were violated.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100016.html#p229

Note: Although there is nothing written explicitly connecting this event above with the slaying of Tadc inda Eich Gil Ó Conchobair below, it is easy to surmise the 2 events are somehow connected.

AU1030.5	Tadc ua Conchobuir, king of Connacht, and In Got, king of Mide, were killed.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100001A.html#p467
AU1030.12	Tadc son of Cathal son of Conchobor was killed by Mael Sechnaill ua Maíl Ruanaid, king of Cremthann.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100001A.html#p469
AT1030.10	Tadhg son of Cathal son of Conchobhar, king of Connacht, was killed by Ó Maelruanaidh, king of Crumthann, and by the Clan Coscraidh including Ecsaide Ó Cathluain.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p370
AT1030.12	Domhnall the Stammerer, king of Meath, was treacherously killed by his own soldier, Cú Cairn Ó Cobhthaigh.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p371
AI1030.5	Tadc Ua Conchobuir, king of Connachta, was slain by the Connachta.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100004.html#p197
AI1030.6	Domnall Got, king of Mide, was killed.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100004.html#p197
AFM1030.12*	Tadhg of the White Steed Ua Conchobhair, King of Connaught, was slain by the Gott, i. e. Maelseachlainn, grandson of Maelruanaidh, lord of Meath and Cremthainne.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005B.html#p819
AFM1030.20	Domhnall Gott, King of Meath, was treacherously slain by Cucaratt Ua Cobhthaigh, one of his own soldiers.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005B.html#p821
AB1030.K7	Tadg mac Cathail meic Concubair interfectus est o Maelsecnaill u Mailruanaid ríg Crumthaind.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/G100012.html#p329
CS1030.9	Tadc son of Cathal son of Conchobor, king of Connacht, was killed by Mael Sechnaill ua Maílruanaidh, king of Crimthann, and by Clann Coscraidh with Escaidi ua Catluain.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100016.html#p229
CS1030.10	Domnall Got, king of Mide, was killed treacherously by Cúcaird ua Maílchallann, his own mercenary.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100016.html#p229

*Note: AFM1030.12 appears to be a garbled entry that the other entries clear up and expound upon. That is, the slaying of Domnall Got ríg Mide and the slaying of Tadc inda Eich Gil Ó Conchobair were 2 separate and independent events that AFM1030.12 egregiously conflated.

1036 AD

AT1036.2	Maolseachlainn Ó Maolruanaidh, king of Cremthann, was killed by Aodh Ó Conchobhair in revenge for Tadhg son of Cathal, and Brian.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p375
AI1036.3	Mael Sechnaill son of Cormac, royal heir of Uí Briúin, was slain.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100004.html#p203
AFM1036.5	Maeleachlainn, lord of Creamthaiune, was slain by Aedh Ua Conchobhair, in revenge of Tadhg of the White Steed, and of Brian.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005B.html#p831
CS1036.2	Mael Sechnaill ua Maelruanaidh king of Cremthann was killed by Aed ua Conchobuir in revenge for Tadc and Brian.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100016.html#p233

Note: AI1036.3 above along with AU1029.3 previously provide a crucial link between the Uí Crimthainn (Cruffon) and the Uí Briúin. It is not as definitive as could be wished for since it does not explicitly say Cormac is the son of Máel Rúanada, but the combination of all these annals entries STRONGLY points to a genealogy of Máel Sechnaill son of Cormac son of Máel Rúanada and calls them Uí Briúin.

1048 AD

AT1048.13	Then came the crown prince of Uí Maine, and Ó Maolruanaidh and Ó Flannacán and the cleric Ó Taidhg and Mac Buadacháin, crown prince of Delbna, and he routed them and killed them all.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100002A.html#p389
AFM1048.17	A predatory excursion was made by the royal heirs or chieftains of Ui-Maine into Dealbhna where the royal chieftains were all slain, namely, Ua Maelruanaidh, Ua Flannagain, the Cleireach Ua Taidhg, and Mac Buadhachain, royal heir of Dealbhna.	https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005B.html#p855

Note: These annals entries above strongly appear to be related to the Delbna Nuadat territory, not the Delbna bEthra territory. The annals entries for the year 756 AD point to the STRONG likelihood that Uí Crimthainn (Cruffon) was comprised of the entirety of the Delbna Nuadat territory at this time in 1048 AD.

Relooking at the above annals entries in light of the Y-DNA results, particularly of R1b-FGC5939, it begins to look like the Uí Crimthainn of Cruffon were Uí Briúin genetically, not Uí Maini. Further, it would appear that the Cland Maíl Rúanada, which for centuries has been linked to the Síl Muiredaig O’Conor, are actually Uí Briúin Seóla (assuming R1b-FGC5939 is indeed Uí Briúin Seóla) based on the number of Mac Dermott and Mac Donagh men appearing there now and NOT under R1b-BY18120 with the Síl Muiredaig O’Conor. Further, it appears they were originally chieftains of the Uí Crimthainn of Cruffon. This is a major discrepancy in the genealogies and bears a lot more scrutiny.

R1b-FGC5939 is increasingly becoming an intriguing clade. It definitely appears to be made up of more than the Uí Briúin Seóla vassal families. I do still think Kenny/etc. most likely comes from the Ó Cennétig family mentioned in the Muinter Murcháda Tract. But Bill Flanigan may well indeed descend from the Cruffon Ó Flannacáin family mentioned in 1048 AD.

We need a lot more men with a much wider variety of surnames to WGS test. This will help us sort out the various families under R1b-FGC5939. I think there are some interesting times ahead.

Let me know what WGS test you recommend and I will see what I can do as far as getting more testers.

Muinter Marchada seems a little west from where my Kennys reside along the Shannon and Suck - townlands: America, Cloonburren, Clonboniff, Clontuskert. This is more consistent with the Delbhna Nuadat location. So I don't think we flow from the Kennedys. Also, we have no matches to date with Kellys (Ui Maine) so that supports no connection with them. I still find it odd that the Kenny sept does not have any defined linkage to any of these groups. Only a large number of Kennys living in the area that are both FGC-5939 and non-FGC-5939.

Thanks

Mike K.,

AFAIK right now, the YSEQ WGS400 test is probably the best value for the money. The Nebula Genomics Deep (32X) WGS is very similar. It just depends on your budget and specific goals. Unfortunately, NO Y chromosome test is fully complete yet. Hopefully that will change in the next couple of years. But the WGS tests certainly beat any BigY test by a long shot.

Also, I am not sure to whom you are referring to by the "Muinter Marchada". Do you mean the Muinter Murcháda? If so, their territory in the 1000 AD time frame was Mag Seóla on the east side of Lough Corrib in Co. Galway until they were later driven west over Lough Corrib into Connemara/West Connacht. I am not sure how far north their territory extended, but again, it shared southern and eastern boundaries with the Uí Fiachroí Aidne and the Uí Maini.

This region is not as clear cut as the histories have made it. It appears to be a melting pot genetically. So far, ONLY the O’Kellys and O’Maddens are sharing a genetic lineage, and that is not R1b-DF104+. Most of the other so-called Uí Maini families seem to be showing up as R1b-A1206 (Uí Fiachroí Aidne) and R1b-FGC5939 (Uí Briúin Seóla). So the Uí Maini seem to have been more of a confederation or political alliance rather than a dynastic group.

Also, Kennedy is only one Anglicization of Cennetig and not necessarily the best one. If you are thinking of family 2 of the Ó Cinnéide surname mentioned by Rev. Woulfe, I don't think that is the same family that is mentioned in the Muinter Murcháda Tract. Although, given the genetic melting pot of the region, it might be possible. Your best bet is to look for these surnames:

O’Dathlaoich is the taiseach of the fourteen ballys of the Hy-Briuin ratha; and of these are the O’Kennedies, and the O’Duinns, and the O’Innogs of Cnoc-tuadh, and O’Laighin of Lackagh, and O’Callanan, comharba of Killcahill.

O’Dathlaoich/O’Dolly/Dolly and sometimes incorrectly Daly/etc. is your best bet. I know for a fact there is still a Dolly gentleman in the Tuam area, Frank Dolly. I have wanted to contact him for a couple of years now, but have never found an email address for him.
https://www.irelandlookup.com/2012609/C ... Tuam_West/
https://localbusinesspages.ie/area.asp? ... nty=Galway

yes sorry about the typo - "Muinter Marchada". Do you mean the Muinter Murcháda. Just wanted to hypothesize that the Kennys seem to be located further east along the rivers.
I came across this 1890 book, Celtic Scotland, which also seems to be using the Muinter Murcháda tract as its basis but it used the term "ecclesiastical sept occupying church land ". Have you heard this term before ? Wondering if there is a listing somewhere of these septs ? My Kenny branches all seem to reside closely to ancient religious sites. Working at these sites before the Reformation would have probably been good work. After that it was just survival as a tenant farmer with little opportunity.

O'Dathlaoich is the Toiseach of the fourteen Ballys
of the Hy Briuin Eatha (or half a Triocha Ceud), and of these
are the O'Kennedies and the O'Duinns and the O'Innogs
of Cnoctuadh and O'Laighin of Lackagh and O'Callanan,
Coraharba of Kilcahil,' the latter being an ecclesiastical sept
occupying church land.

https://archive.org/stream/celticscotla ... t_djvu.txt

In addition to Bill Flanigan, I notice there is a a Paul Canavan BY20588 under FGC5939. This name is mentioned as the doctor for O'Flaherty.
Hopefully, we will get more testers to help resolve.

Thanks for your insights, Mike

Mike K.,

There were the coarb and erenagh of church properties and these positions did become hereditary in many families. The O’Callanan are identified as coarbs in the Muinter Murcháda Tract. As far as finding lists of the families who held these positions, you will just have to do searches and hopefully find something.

David,

Thanks for the timely posting of the 300 year annals (750-1050 AD) augmented by your thoughts and analysis as may relate to the Cruffon territory of the Connacht. I'm particularly excited about the premise of a R1b-FGC5939 link to the Cruffon O'Flannacain family documented in the annals circa 1048 AD. Hopefully, further DNA testing will clarify if Ui Briuin Seola is the proper genetic grouping.

Thanks also to Mike Kenny for inserting discussion of the possible Delbhna - FGC5939 link into the blog as food for thought. Our cumulative knowledge continues to grow.

Bill,

You are very welcome. I think slowly but surely as our Y-DNA/surname database grows, we will find some of the connections we are looking for.

Re the R1b-FGC5939 clade, I have been calling it the Uí Briúin Seóla Vassals clade because of the early surnames that were showing up in it. I added the "Plus" as newer test data brought in seemingly unrelated surnames. The records do not provide an Uí Briúin Seóla progenitor for this clade, unfortunately. Based on the Y-DNA correlation with the genealogies, what we do have is:

Brión > Dau Galach (A18726) > Eógan Sríab (A259) > Muiredach Máel > Fergus (A260) > Dau Tengae Umae & Fergnóe

The above is not fact as of yet; it is my best surmise with the current data. The Dau Tengae Umae / Uí Briúin Seóla lineage only shows one son per generation for a few generations after Dau Tengae Umae. His son Senach would possibly have had the BY11724 mutation which is found in the Muinter Murcháda and Cland Coscraig descendants. There are no generations provided with multiple sons in the right time frame to have developed the FGC5939 mutation.

However, it is clear in the Uí Briúin Seóla genealogies there is at least one missing generation during the time frame that FGC5939 would have developed. I personally think that Senach was Dau Tengae Umae's grandson and that Dau Tengae Umae had TWO sons. But that is purely my speculation.

What we DO have in the records is FOUR (4) sons of Fergnóe: Áed Find (BY3338), Brénaind (A5902), Dícuill, and Feradach. The first 2 sons are credited with most, if not all, of the Uí Briúin Bréifne families; but very little seems to be known of the descendants of the last 2 sons, Dícuill and Feradach.

So it IS possible that R1b-FGC5939 could have originated with either Dícuill or Feradach since we have no known Uí Briúin Seóla progenitor to point to. If this is the case, then their descendants apparently stayed in and around Co. Galway and Roscommon and did not migrate into Bréifne with their cousins, the descendants of Áed Find and Brénaind.

IDK if we will ever be able to find evidence one way or the other; so for now I will continue to label R1b-FGC5939 as most likely Uí Briúin Seóla because of the vassals surnames mentioned in the Muinter Murcháda Tract. But I am very open to other documented possibilities. The topographical poems sometimes have hidden gems in them.

David,

Thank you for this excellent post. I have been revisiting this conundrum and something caught my attention.

(AFM555.2) “The battle of Cul Dreimhne was gained against Diarmaid, son of Cearbhall, by Fearghus and Domhnall, the two sons of Muircheartach, son of Earca; by Ainmire, son of Sedna; and by Ainnidh, son of Duach; and by Aedh, son of Eochaidh Tirmcharna.”

For the life of me I can’t find any references to Ainnidh anywhere other than the “son of Duach”. Donovan notes ‘son of Duach Galach’ at the Battle of Sligeachin in 537AD along with the same trouble-makers in AFM555.2 (“The Genealogy, Tribes and Customs of Hy Fiacrach”; pg. 312 )
This implies Ainnidh could be Aedh’s uncle or cousin? Currently, I am leaning toward Ainnidh being the brother of Senach if he really exists. [Dau Tengae Umai → Ainnidh & Senach → Aedh → Colgu → Cenn Faelad. (AFM555.2)] https://celt.ucc.ie//published/T100005A/index.html]

My other mystery is at “Book of Ballymote”; 5.2.3 – 1601:
“Ocht mc. Ailella mc. Echach mugmedon, Ferghus Fiacra Ros otat Cenel Rosa Segna Cosmail Niall Eocho Liath Fidgenid.” I can’t seem to find any other reference to Ocht except for a confusing definition of “eight” when I tried to translate.

This may be a long shot, but Clann Ui Ailella disappears about the same time Clann Crimthainn gains strength (@750AD). IF “the Uí Ailello were later replaced as the third of the Three Connachta, through genealogical sleight of hand, by the Uí Maine*,” it would give ample reason for Crimthainn to exact revenge on the Ui Maine in Delbna.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Bri%C3%BAin
It could also explain the resurgence of the title of Tire nAilella bestowed upon Muirgius mac Donnchad (1272AD) through Mael Ruanaid son of Tadg Ua Conchobair (956AD)

Unfortunately, this would lead back to the question of why the Crimthainn would hold a grudge against the Ua Conchobhair by @1030AD, and if/how the Ui Ailella genealogies may tie in. Time and patience will tell.