Genelach Dáil Cuinn Project™ Forum

Hello Dal Cuinn Group, I'm late getting onto this board but figured I'd start the thread for discussions on the A5902+ kindreds who are primarily native to the baronies of Tullyhaw & Tullyhunco, Co. Cavan.

Chris

Chris,

Welcome! Glad you made it over to us.

Thanks David!! FYI I'm in the process of upgrading McCLEAN IN58736 to BigY700. Expecting him to probably be close to that Masterson thats on the blocktree but never joined SOA.

McGovern 301214 added to the BY18134 block. More and more likely this could be the line of Samhradhain.

Chris,

So what do you think is going on with the R1b-BY38400 clade? Because while 2 are non McGovern surnames, one is. And the Haplotree indicates it was an early split, well before the emergence of R1b-BY18134. So possibly an independent surname origin? Or something else? I'd love to see your ideas.

Hey David, I think there are a number of possibilities but being the two Magaurans have 5 variants separating them, I think that would definitely place them in Teallach Eachach territory pre-surname stabilization. I would definitely agree with your estimation that BY38400 is another Teallach Eachach family. To my knowledge, Hawley is not native to Ireland. But it very well could be a corruption of MacCaulay (Mac Amhlaoibh) . This surname by the way is numerous in Kinawley parish, Fermanagh. An area that the english hived off from Breifne Ui Ruairc around the time when they were shiring Cavan in 1584. I believe this was part of a larger area under the Maguire called "Clanawley" named in the 14th century after Amhlaoibh Mag Uidhir, first son of Donn Carrach Mag Uidhir. So I'm on the fence whether this is a later NPE or could very well be that an A5902 family (likely from Teallach Eachach) that migrated north a very very long time ago. Hawley's papertrail indicates early 19th century Appalachia if I remember correctly, an indication of the waves of Ulster emigration 1718-75. I've been hoping he gets a closer relative to start sorting things out.
I've also taken "Household" of Eochaid to mean not just descendents of Eochaid, but more towards "kin", so we could be looking at multiple nodes from Brenainn's grandsons or great-grandsons whose descendants were part of the Teallach Eachach as well as the Teallach Dunchadha. As far as their surname being Magauran, several things come to mind aside from just the "children being taken in by kin/neighbors after loss of parents" which seemed to happen often in my family. I was watching the "Research your Clan" video on youtube by Dr. Gleeson and he spent a small segment talking about social status influencing marriages in gaelic Ireland, i.e. the woman being of higher social status and marrying a peasant-class farmer who would take her surname. So the thought has definitely gone through my mind of how many children a chieftain (or just someone in the tanistry several generations removed) would have that didnt have some sort of power-marriage arranged. A female Magauran several generations removed from a chieftain may still be of higher social status than a prospective husband. This also got my gears turning thinking about how else my ancestors obtained a galloglass surname aside from being recruited from the tuath where they were billeted.

Something else that has piqued my interest as far as surname changes is failed intercine conflict. I was reading about two Magauran sons in the 14th century who had different mothers and were both about to go to war after their father had passed and the elder son took his place. The younger son's mother was an Ui Raghaillaigh. He went to gather up his mother's kin to fight with him, as obviously they had an interest in having a close relative wielding power in a neighboring tuath. His war failed and he was "cast out" of Tealleach Eachach. It occurred to me that if he never returned and 4 generations went by, his descendants were probably no longer Magaurans. I wondered if the opposite also occurred and there were Magauran surnamed men who for the longest time were not of the Teallach Eachach. Either way, it definitely adds to the confusion of figuring this all out!

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for that great analysis!

I can definitely see Amlaíb being adopted as a surname like Mac hAmlaíb or Ó hAmlaíb which would eventually sound similar to Hawley. According to Prof. Donnchadh Ó Corráin, Amlaíb is a borrowing of the Scandinavian name Olaf; and apparently in later medieval sources Amalgaid became totally confused with Amlaíb.

Re Tellach, I had thought it usually had a meaning of a more intimate family group, but according to eDIL is was also used as tribe, race, sept, etc. And, sadly, there are missing brothers and sometimes generations in the genealogies, so there are entire family branches we have no record of. Under the Uí Briúin Seóla, we have discovered what is turning out to be a rather large branch of men who by interpolation of their modern surnames descend from a line who chose the surname Mac or Ó Cinn Fáelada and branched off before the Muinter Murchada developed. And yet so far, there is no record of this branch.

Hopefully, time will help us sort out all the branches in a reasonably satisfactory manner. Keep up the excellent work, good sir!

That is fascinating! I recently decided to expand the McGovern dna group to include all of A5902. I'd like to put some work into all these branches as far as researching surname clusters go. For instance the O'Celleachain, most numerous in Tibohine parish, Co. Roscommon, somewhere around the area that the A5902+ would have migrated out of with the Ui Briuin Breifne. They couldve largely been a "stay behind" branch.

Chris,

I am delighted you have expanded your interest to the whole R1b-A5902 branch.

That is a definite possibility as a "stay behind" group in Tibohine Parish. I am still not sure where the Uí Briúin originated, although Tuam may be the most likely. I AM certain the Seóla and Bréifne septs are the descendants of the original primary Uí Briúin line. See this post for my reasoning.

James,

Welcome to the DCG Forum!

If you have not done so, I highly recommend you join the McGovern surname project at FTDNA. It is administrated by Chris McLain, who is also on this forum and whose posts you can see below. I am sure he will not mind you contacting him by PM.

That sounds like a great trip! Again, I recommend you contact Chris before going since he has done extensive research in this geographic area.

I see you are forming your own R1b-FT67264 subclade. As I show on the DCG Cladogram, Cunningham can derive from the Gaelic Ó Connagáin surname, and John Grenham adds Mac/Ó Cuinneagáin. Unfortunately, none of these surnames appear listed under the Chiefs and Clans in Bréifne; and Rev. Woulfe says it is somewhat of a generic surname, although he does list an Uí Maini family and we have been seeing that the Uí Maini are more of a confederation of families from different clades/haplogroups. This is one of those difficult to pinpoint surnames.